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Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Mar 22, 2015 12:02 |  #871

David Arbogast wrote in post #17486621 (external link)
Thanks for the reality check.

Wish my wife would adopt such an attitude when I share my ideas. :-P

Honestly, the more I think about their decision to show the peppercorns through what looks like acrylic, the more I question their potential bias. I mean, it is either bias or just stupidity. Check out the yellow and red on the left of the first image where it shows through the grinder, totally distorted.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 22, 2015 12:48 |  #872

John Sheehy wrote in post #17485842 (external link)
I got all excited when I saw that I-R has samples, but there are no RAWs yet ... bummer.

Ok, I got an ISO 100 and 12800 RAW from the 5DSR (sorry, I can't give the source, as the person who pointed me too them sent me a private message on DPReview). The astrophotgrophy program "IRIS" decodes the upper-left-hand quarter of the image, complete with left- and top-edge masked piixels. Pixel-level read noise is 20% higher than the 7D2 at both ISO 100 and ISO 12800. ISO 100 DR, measuring from read noise floor to clipping, is 11.1 stops.

This may be for good reason, though, at ISO 12800, if the color filters on the sensor are more defining than the ones in the 7D2; I'd have to see what the color saturation is like to know if that is the reason; this would result in better color separation and slightly better chromatic noise for difficult colors.

Bottom line is that under the color filter, this is the same old Canon sensor tech. Nothing new except pixel count.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 22, 2015 12:54 |  #873

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17486080 (external link)
OMG, 17 MB jpegs.

When the image is open on my widescreen, it's at 17%!

Clicking 1/1 size is mind blowing.

ISO 12800 RAW I have is 88MB. That is pretty absurd, when you consider that only 8 bits are necessary for ISO 12800, so 6 non-compressible bits are just wasting space. ISO 100 really doesn't need 14 bits either.




  
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woos
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Mar 22, 2015 13:06 |  #874

John Sheehy wrote in post #17486697 (external link)
Ok, I got an ISO 100 and 12800 RAW from the 5DSR (sorry, I can't give the source, as the person who pointed me too them sent me a private message on DPReview). The astrophotgrophy program "IRIS" decodes the upper-left-hand quarter of the image, complete with left- and top-edge masked piixels. Pixel-level read noise is 20% higher than the 7D2 at both ISO 100 and ISO 12800. ISO 100 DR, measuring from read noise floor to clipping, is 11.1 stops.

This may be for good reason, though, at ISO 12800, if the color filters on the sensor are more defining than the ones in the 7D2; I'd have to see what the color saturation is like to know if that is the reason; this would result in better color separation and slightly better chromatic noise for difficult colors.

Bottom line is that under the color filter, this is the same old Canon sensor tech. Nothing new except pixel count.

Uhh you can just get the raws from replacing ".jpg" with ".cr2" in the imaging resource files. :P Actually nevermind, they are legit posted now. IR almost always does this though, shh! :P

And yeah it's still the same old Canon sensor tech. Though simply due to the amount of pixels it will probably read high 12's at DXO.


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woos
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Mar 22, 2015 13:09 |  #875

John Sheehy wrote in post #17486704 (external link)
ISO 12800 RAW I have is 88MB. That is pretty absurd, when you consider that only 8 bits are necessary for ISO 12800, so 6 non-compressible bits are just wasting space. ISO 100 really doesn't need 14 bits either.

Lol, right? Let's check and see if Canon bought a bunch of stock in flash manufacturers. :P jk


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John ­ Sheehy
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Mar 22, 2015 13:52 |  #876

woos wrote in post #17486723 (external link)
Uhh you can just get the raws from replacing ".jpg" with ".cr2" in the imaging resource files. :P Actually nevermind, they are legit posted now. IR almost always does this though, shh! :P

As I said, I got it as a PM from someone who posts in the forums, so I just maintained the apparent secrecy. I was thinking maybe I-R would get pissed off if lots of people were "cheating", and they'd withhold the RAWs longer in the future.

And yeah it's still the same old Canon sensor tech. Though simply due to the amount of pixels it will probably read high 12's at DXO.

Yes, my figure of 11.1 was for the pixel. 50MP downsampled to 8MP would be about 12.4 stops. new DR territory for Canon image-wise, but mediocre pixel-wise. Same CMOS "hiss" on the way from the photosites to the ADC.




  
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LonelyBoy
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Mar 22, 2015 14:46 |  #877

Shadowblade wrote in post #17486305 (external link)
Skill is irrelevant when the argument is about gear. A better photographer will produce better work with the same camera, while a better camera will allow the same photographer to produce better work.

And the output DR has absolutely no bearing on the requirement for input DR. In photography, you collect a set of data (the limits of which are determine by the input DR) and compress it to fit the output DR. You don't lose detail in this compression - you change the absolute values for each pixel, but the relative positions and relationships between pixels remain proportionate. But neither do you gain any detail which wasn't captured in the first place - if parts of the scene weren't captured because they were outside the input DR of your sensor, you'll never get it back. A 14-stop landscape shot on a D810 and mapped to a 6-stop output medium will have detail in the brightest highlights and deepest shadows, since the highlights and shadows were captured by the sensor and all compressed together, thus retaining the detail. The same 14-stop landscape shot on a 5D3 and displayed on a 14-stop output medium would still have blown highlights, shadows or both, since they were never captured in the first place.

Sure, you may never encounter DR limitations in your photography, because what you shoot never pushes the limits. In the same way, I never encounter ISO limitations, since I almost never leave baseline for landscapes, or go higher than 3200 for wildlife. But that doesn't mean the limitations aren't there or that they don't impact certain styles of photography which are just as valid as yours, or that they aren't worth expanding just because you won't personally need the DR (or me the ISO).

And why would I want to discuss ways to maximise the use of Canon's limited DR when I can just go out and buy something else that isn't Canon, and gain 2-3 stops of DR in the process? It's not like Canon represents the cutting edge in that regard. I can increase my DR potential just by buying a new camera. If it were about increasing DR further when already using a Nikon or Sony sensor, it would be a completely different question - these sensors represent the highest DR you can buy, and any further improvement, or maximising the potential of these 14-15 stops of DR, is a matter worthy of discussion, since you can't just go and buy a better sensor and need creative solutions (e.g. image blending).

Personally, I find discussion of skill and technique utterly boring - I can develop these in my own way, gain nothing from talking about them and cannot even objectively measure and compare them to say x is better than y. You can do that with equipment, and better equipment gives anyone's photos the potential to be better, or to capture them in more challenging lighting and environmental conditions.

Can you see how the constant refrain of "unacceptable DR!" gets really, really dull to everyone else? It bothers you, we get it. It's also highly unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, and all the bellyaching isn't going to change it a whit. How about we discuss anything else about these cameras, new things, instead of just saying "unacceptable DR!" over and over?


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mystik610
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Mar 22, 2015 15:24 |  #878

LonelyBoy wrote in post #17486843 (external link)
Can you see how the constant refrain of "unacceptable DR!" gets really, really dull to everyone else? It bothers you, we get it. It's also highly unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, and all the bellyaching isn't going to change it a whit. How about we discuss anything else about these cameras, new things, instead of just saying "unacceptable DR!" over and over?

Given the highly specialized nature of this camera (high megapixel, capped at ISO6400), discussion and comments about DR are warranted, IMO. This is a studio and landscapers camera...the latter group puts a lot of value in DR. I'm not a landscaper, but I can empathize.

Releasing a 50mp sensor that, compared to the competition, underperforms in a key area like DR, is the equivalent of a car manufacturer developing a great motor for a sports car, and mating it to a crappy transmission and drive-train.

It would also be the equivalent of Canon releasing a sports oriented camera, that had less FPS, and a worse AF system than it's competitors.


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RDKirk
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Mar 22, 2015 16:02 |  #879

mystik610 wrote in post #17486891 (external link)
Given the highly specialized nature of this camera (high megapixel, capped at ISO6400), discussion and comments about DR are warranted, IMO. This is a studio and landscapers camera...the latter group puts a lot of value in DR. I'm not a landscaper, but I can empathize.

Releasing a 50mp sensor that, compared to the competition, underperforms in a key area like DR, is the equivalent of a car manufacturer developing a great motor for a sports car, and mating it to a crappy transmission and drive-train.

It would also be the equivalent of Canon releasing a sports oriented camera, that had less FPS, and a worse AF system than it's competitors.

And all that gets said ad nauseum with every Canon camera release--actually, even before the release...such as in this thread.

Whether that niche of photographers want to hear it or not, good photographers have been dealing with insufficient dynamic range since St Ansel first started with orthochromatic film and an extinction light meter. If Canon is inadequate for those photographers in all important ways, then there is no option for them but to use a different camera. Otherwise, it's not inadequate, it just has other benefits that outweigh that disadvantage.

I've shot landscapes with view cameras before--it's a physical PITA (although there is a good number of masochists who revel in it). Making magnificent photographs with a DSLR is so freaking easy we should laugh out loud every time we release the shutter, regardless which camera we're using.

Droning on and on about the shortcomings of a camera one still finds the most useful choice is just kvetching. Droning on and on about a camera that one didn't find adequate and so chose to use a different camera is still just kvetching. Droning on and on about a camera that isn't even available yet is being a kvetch.




  
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Submariner
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Mar 22, 2015 17:05 |  #880

raksphoto wrote in post #17486259 (external link)
I do not agree with the persistent naysaying by some about Canon image sensors, and it's gone on so long in these discussions that I'm finding it tiresome, boring, and unimaginative.

Because if we discuss a specification Canon lacks ad nauseum, but are also not reciprocally at the same time discussing the advances in technology they have made that are thoroughly lacking in Sony, Nikon, and others ... then the discussion is unbalanced about absolutely all of the things that comprise the imaging pipeline for a camera as a complete system.

A very narrow viewpoint on dynamic range in re: Canon CMOS sensors seems not in balance with the whole of the art of photography.

All of our photographic art involves the creative management of the dynamic range of the media used. Obsolete DLSRs have more dynamic range than film. If one uses some other camera system with 13+ stops of dynamic range, that range still has to be mapped to another form of output media for viewing. If you are editing very carefully for electronic display to others, guess what: your image will still be seen on numerous divergent output media you cannot even come close to controlling the dynamic range of. And if you are developing beautiful art prints, you only get about 6-stops dynamic range of output to fit your 13+ stops of input into:
http://www.imatest.com …ge-quality/dynamic-range/ (external link)

The photographer is the creative aegis behind the artful mapping from input to output obtained with technical means including the camera.

I would enjoy far more dialog about how to creatively use the dynamic range obtainable with Canon EOS DSLRs to make masterful artworks for ePublication and for print.

An affirmation for photographic art: What the photographer can do; not what the camera cannot do.

Have you ever heard the saying "you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear"
Sorry you are completely missing rhe point why I and I am sure many photographers have critisized Canon Sensors.
I like many want to buy Canon becuase of their lenses, support services, and Speedlight system etc. but we want the Best DR and The Best High Resolution and detail available.
ATM the D810 clearly surpsasses the 5D3, IMO - if there are any tricks to be learned to improve things I am all ears, but for the same amount of money I expect equivalent image quality, which Canon is not delivering.

I find your loyal complacency - rather dangerous. If many people support your thought process, why the hell should Canon even bother - no one could not blame them for thinking "hell this user base will accept any old tat."
If we all supported the facts, namely that Canon need to rival or better Sony ( as they are more expensive ) Maybe they would get off their asses and develop something comparable or better still OEM in Sony Sensors and solve the problem in a heartbeat.
Lets face it technology can assist all levels of Photographers.

I for one feel bitter in having to pay the same amount as a Nikon user , but them to spend hours pulling tricks in post to get the same or reslistically a poorer quality result as a Nikon user gets just pushing a button.
After all all these little tricks take time - and time is money!


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Submariner
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Mar 22, 2015 17:08 |  #881

Shadowblade wrote in post #17486305 (external link)
Skill is irrelevant when the argument is about gear. A better photographer will produce better work with the same camera, while a better camera will allow the same photographer to produce better work.

And the output DR has absolutely no bearing on the requirement for input DR. In photography, you collect a set of data (the limits of which are determine by the input DR) and compress it to fit the output DR. You don't lose detail in this compression - you change the absolute values for each pixel, but the relative positions and relationships between pixels remain proportionate. But neither do you gain any detail which wasn't captured in the first place - if parts of the scene weren't captured because they were outside the input DR of your sensor, you'll never get it back. A 14-stop landscape shot on a D810 and mapped to a 6-stop output medium will have detail in the brightest highlights and deepest shadows, since the highlights and shadows were captured by the sensor and all compressed together, thus retaining the detail. The same 14-stop landscape shot on a 5D3 and displayed on a 14-stop output medium would still have blown highlights, shadows or both, since they were never captured in the first place.

Sure, you may never encounter DR limitations in your photography, because what you shoot never pushes the limits. In the same way, I never encounter ISO limitations, since I almost never leave baseline for landscapes, or go higher than 3200 for wildlife. But that doesn't mean the limitations aren't there or that they don't impact certain styles of photography which are just as valid as yours, or that they aren't worth expanding just because you won't personally need the DR (or me the ISO).

And why would I want to discuss ways to maximise the use of Canon's limited DR when I can just go out and buy something else that isn't Canon, and gain 2-3 stops of DR in the process? It's not like Canon represents the cutting edge in that regard. I can increase my DR potential just by buying a new camera. If it were about increasing DR further when already using a Nikon or Sony sensor, it would be a completely different question - these sensors represent the highest DR you can buy, and any further improvement, or maximising the potential of these 14-15 stops of DR, is a matter worthy of discussion, since you can't just go and buy a better sensor and need creative solutions (e.g. image blending).

Personally, I find discussion of skill and technique utterly boring - I can develop these in my own way, gain nothing from talking about them and cannot even objectively measure and compare them to say x is better than y. You can do that with equipment, and better equipment gives anyone's photos the potential to be better, or to capture them in more challenging lighting and environmental conditions.

I Completely agree!


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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 22, 2015 17:37 |  #882

Submariner wrote in post #17487051 (external link)
I Completely agree!

I do too (mostly), but is a bore to constantly re-state the immutable fact: Canon is stuck at 12 EVs DR. It's not going to change. Either live with it or move on to something else.


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Mar 22, 2015 17:41 |  #883

LonelyBoy wrote in post #17486843 (external link)
Can you see how the constant refrain of "unacceptable DR!" gets really, really dull to everyone else? It bothers you, we get it. It's also highly unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, and all the bellyaching isn't going to change it a whit. How about we discuss anything else about these cameras, new things, instead of just saying "unacceptable DR!" over and over?

It bothers a lot of people. And is a really big deal for certain types of photography it is more important than resolution.


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RDKirk
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Mar 22, 2015 17:51 |  #884

David Arbogast wrote in post #17487100 (external link)
I do too (mostly), but is a bore to constantly re-state the immutable fact: Canon is stuck at 12 EVs DR. It's not going to change. Either live with it or move on to something else.


Well, it won't change with any existing cameras, so, for sure "live with it or move to something else." And it might change in a future camera, so there's nothing wrong with identifying one's desires. But complaining about issues old tech and complaining about new and future tech that isn't even in one's hands yet is useless.




  
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RDKirk
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Mar 22, 2015 17:52 |  #885

Mornnb wrote in post #17487108 (external link)
It bothers a lot of people. And is a really big deal for certain types of photography it is more important than resolution.

That was hyperbole, right?




  
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