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Thread started 18 Mar 2015 (Wednesday) 08:41
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The Creative Vision Hoax in Nature Photography

 
AZGeorge
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Mar 29, 2015 11:51 |  #61

banquetbear wrote in post #17495716 (external link)
...so Dave is the only honest photographer, and everyone else is lying?

I think his unfortunate mild rant in starting the thread just backed him into an uncomfortable corner but, then, that's only my creative vision.


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davebreal
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Mar 31, 2015 18:03 |  #62

AZGeorge wrote in post #17496764 (external link)
I think his unfortunate mild rant in starting the thread just backed him into an uncomfortable corner but, then, that's only my creative vision.

Why would I feel uncomfortable? Most replies to my original post completely misconstrue my message re: full disclosure and integrity in the photography realm. This is not an anti-HDR post.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 01, 2015 00:39 |  #63

davebreal wrote in post #17495562 (external link)
If I leave home w/o CPLs and ND filters, I consider it a mistake. However, I don't claim that "my eyes see silky water or dark blue skies" here in New Jersey.

Right - of course your eyes don't see that. But Creative Vision doesn't have anything to do with what your eyes see - it has to do with what you imagine - what you see in your mind's eye (a.k.a. imagination). Do you realize this, or do you still think that when people say "my creative vision ....." that they are referring to what they see with their actual eyeballs? I think that if you understood what people mean when they use the term, you might not have a problem with it anymore.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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idkdc
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Apr 01, 2015 01:15 |  #64

OP should retake his/her advanced English course at a better school.


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davebreal
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Apr 01, 2015 05:12 |  #65

idkdc wrote in post #17500229 (external link)
OP should retake his/her advanced English course at a better school.

I did fine in the subject at college as well. How about yourself?


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davebreal
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Apr 01, 2015 05:13 |  #66

Tom Reichner wrote in post #17500204 (external link)
Right - of course your eyes don't see that. But Creative Vision doesn't have anything to do with what your eyes see - it has to do with what you imagine - what you see in your mind's eye (a.k.a. imagination). Do you realize this, or do you still think that when people say "my creative vision ....." that they are referring to what they see with their actual eyeballs? I think that if you understood what people mean when they use the term, you might not have a problem with it anymore.

The correlation between Creative Vision, imagination, and post-processing are as much of a stretch as saying that all murders are a result of rap music.


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LV ­ Moose
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Apr 01, 2015 10:23 |  #67

This is like watching conservatives and liberals argue over a political issue. You're not going to change one another's view regardless of how forcefully, or eloquently, you state your opinion, or how many times you restate it. You might sway some neophyte to your "side" if they've never given the concept much thought, but anyone who's been into photography... or any other artistic medium... for long already has an idea of what "creative vision" is to them.

I propose a poll. Not to prove who's right and who's wrong, because there is no right or wrong on this subject. It would just be interesting to see where forum members stand on the issue. There are obviously two main camps, but also a couple of views that seem to take a little from both. So, who wants to contribute their definition? I think there should be at least three or four choices in the poll, maybe five if you add the obligatory "who gives a crap, go out and shoot."

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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 01, 2015 13:13 |  #68

davebreal wrote in post #17500323 (external link)
The correlation between Creative Vision, imagination, and post-processing are as much of a stretch as saying that all murders are a result of rap music.

Well, then, Dave, what do you think people who use the term mean when they say, "my creative vision"? Every time I have ever seen the term used - every single time, without exception - it has to do with what the photographer saw in his/her imagination. That is how people use the term. That is what the term means. So how can you basically say that creative vision and imagination are not necessarily based on one another?


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Post edited over 3 years ago by [Hyuni]. (2 edits in all)
     
Apr 01, 2015 13:52 |  #69

davebreal wrote in post #17500323 (external link)
The correlation between Creative Vision, imagination, and post-processing are as much of a stretch as saying that all murders are a result of rap music.

http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Straw_man (external link)


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Apr 01, 2015 14:19 as a reply to  @ [Hyuni]'s post |  #70

:-P


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Apr 01, 2015 16:30 |  #71

davebreal wrote in post #17500322 (external link)
I did fine in the subject at college as well. How about yourself?

Have fun marketing that.
https://youtu.be/Fdyyp​s2wmd4?t=1m16s (external link)


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Apr 01, 2015 17:06 |  #72

davebreal wrote in post #17500323 (external link)
The correlation between Creative Vision, imagination, and post-processing are as much of a stretch as saying that all murders are a result of rap music.

Sooooooo.........what do you call digital art? Someone uses their creative vision to imagine disparate elements together as a new scene (using their imagination) and use post processing tools to then create that scene from pre-existing images.


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Apr 01, 2015 17:31 |  #73

Scatterbrained wrote in post #17501066 (external link)
Sooooooo.........what do you call digital art? Someone uses their creative vision to imagine disparate elements together as a new scene (using their imagination) and use post processing tools to then create that scene from pre-existing images.

I call that digital art creation.


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Apr 01, 2015 17:32 |  #74

davebreal wrote in post #17501097 (external link)
I call that digital art creation.

Well, they need to employ a creative vision to have the vision to create the scene. ;)


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Apr 01, 2015 18:06 |  #75

If there is a situation in which someone has taken a photo of “nature,” gussied up with post processing to the point of surrealism, and then claims no manipulation was involved, that this is what anyone would have seen if they were there (give are take a few clicks for color blindness and such), then yes, a lapse of integrity has occurred.

I don’t know how much this happens in nature photography, or whether a tacit understanding even exists that in nature photography specifically, the strict rules of photojournalism apply lest one confesses.

What I do know is that a) claiming “creative vision” is not the same as claiming no manipulation involved, and b) it’s highly presumptuous of you or me to define the actual intentions and actions of photographers who cite creative vision for their respective renderings.

In the broader view of photography, vision is a legitimate concept; imagination is a legitimate exercise; and post processing is a legitimate practice. Creativity and imagination are often interlocked, this is not debatable—-they’re basically synonymous as the next sentence demonstrates via redundancy. That one might use post processing in a creative and imaginative manner occurs…this is not debatable, it has been occurring since the onset of photography. One would be a damn fool to think otherwise.

Whether this matters to the OP’s original argument is another story, except that the OP appears, and I stress appears, to be discrediting the notion that creativity, pre-visualization, and post processing can interactively function within the realm of photography.

I hope this is not the case, as it would ludicrously deny all that is reality, but I can see why people might interpret his comments as such, thus stoking the ongoing arguments.

What I am curious about (well, rhetorically) is the manner and means of the OP’s demanded disclosures. And where is this line drawn as to when such mea culpa is required or not. Remember, manipulated post processing occurs in ALL photography.

And the disclosure’s tone; should it be one set in guilt-ridden shame, the way the OP’s suggested statements express, or just factual. And at what point is manipulation so obvious that disclosure would be superfluous.

I actually sympathize with the OP’s concerns about pretentious pretext and jargon, as it does coat a good chunk of the art world (well beyond photography), but such abuses should not lead to unfair conflation, which is what appears to be happening.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I pre-visualize in black & white (I have a general but always evolving vision as to what I want to achieve). If we want to call this “creative vision” or “pandering to the platypus” I don’t care. But if anyone questions my integrity when I explain such process, which I rarely ever do, then I can only view these impertinent skeptics as inadequate and ultimately irrelevant to the greater discourse of photography.

Good day y’all!


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The Creative Vision Hoax in Nature Photography
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