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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Shadowblade
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Apr 08, 2015 21:07 |  #1096

davidfarina wrote in post #17509902 (external link)
Makes totally sense. But not every movie is shot in artificial lights (tv ads, documentary films etc)

Most of these scenes also either don't have 15 stops of DR worth of details that need to be captured (most daytime scenes) or take place in dark environments where you need to increase gain and are limited by that rather than by baseline DR anyway.

Video is unlike stills. The focus is on the action and on the foreground elements, not on what is happening in the background. Then there are the added elements of dynamics and sound. In a still photo, the details have to say everything. In video, half the screen area can be black, with light only on the actors' faces and a hint of detail in the background, with the sound of slow, dripping water signifying that they're in a dark drain or sewer, and we still know what's going on.

And panning, establishing shots of nonmoving subjects (e.g. the shot of the landscape the scene is taking place in, before cutting to the actors) is often taken using a high-resolution stills camera, not a video camera.




  
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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Apr 09, 2015 07:13 |  #1097

Shadowblade wrote in post #17509881 (external link)
Movies are largely shot in controlled or semi-controlled lighting, either in a studio or with outdoor artificial lights. You can always use fill lighting on the actors. Outdoor scenes during the daytime rarely have 12 stops of DR. And outdoor scenes at nighttime, sunset, or other dark scenes, have DR limited by ISO anyway - if you have 15 stops at ISO 100 and the curve is linear (like an ideal sensor), you're limited to 12 stops at ISO 800 anyway.

At this point you've made probably 150 posts in this thread, most in support of sensors that support higher DR, now you are separating the outdoor scenes a video camera records from the same scenes a still camera records?

"Outdoor scenes during the daytime rarely have 12 stops of DR."

???

How many times have you talked about landscape photogs need for more DR?


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Shadowblade
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Apr 09, 2015 08:41 |  #1098

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #17510429 (external link)
At this point you've made probably 150 posts in this thread, most in support of sensors that support higher DR,

For landscape still photography.

now you are separating the outdoor scenes a video camera records from the same scenes a still camera records?

"Outdoor scenes during the daytime rarely have 12 stops of DR."

During the daytime, they rarely do.

It's just after sunrise and just before sunset that you tend to run into extremes of dynamic range and long, dark shadows that need to be lifted to reveal detail. Which is precisely when landscape photographers are shooting, but not, generally, when cinematographers are making movies.

???

How many times have you talked about landscape photogs need for more DR?

The applications couldn't be more different.

When shooting video, you're generally shooting at least at 1/25-1/30 (for 25fps) or 1/50-1/60 (for 50fps output). You don't have the option of going any slower when the light starts to dim. Therefore you must push the ISO/gain higher to maintain adequate exposure. In doing so, you're losing the advantage of higher base-ISO DR, right at the time of the day you need it most - around sunrise and sunset, when the required exposure time at ISO 100 becomes slower than 1/25 or so.

Also, with most video, the foreground elements - actors, moving things, etc. are the elements of interest. Not the background, which can have small parts blown out to white or black without affecting the scene. It's a lot more like portraiture than landscape photography - you expose for the subject, not the background.

When shooting stills, on the other hand, you have the option of extending your exposure to 1/10, 1/4, 1 second or even longer, while remaining at base ISO. So you actually have a change to take advantage of the greater DR offered.




  
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welshwizard1971
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Apr 09, 2015 13:30 |  #1099

I enjoy my photography, I enjoy my Canon gear, and I'm going to do something I should have done ages ago, I'm un-following this thread, I can do without the relentless negativity in my life.To all those who like their gear, enjoy, to all those who seem hell bent on complaining about it, just bite the bullet and buy into whatever brand you feel is so much better, and the very best of luck to you :-)


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Apr 09, 2015 13:54 |  #1100

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #17510838 (external link)
I enjoy my photography, I enjoy my Canon gear, and I'm going to do something I should have done ages ago, I'm un-following this thread, I can do without the relentless negativity in my life.To all those who like their gear, enjoy, to all those who seem hell bent on complaining about it, just bite the bullet and buy into whatever brand you feel is so much better, and the very best of luck to you :-)

Jup, me too. Too much blabla here


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Apr 09, 2015 15:23 as a reply to  @ davidfarina's post |  #1101

Gear threads = blabla, by definition :D


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David ­ Arbogast
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Apr 09, 2015 15:43 |  #1102

AJSJones wrote in post #17511042 (external link)
Gear threads = blabla, by definition :D

Hehe...and we have a lot of blabla yet to go till we see the camera in June. Then it will be time for pictures!!  :p

Till then we need to keep on discussing the impressive merits of those awesome Sony sensors. ;)


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sploo
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Apr 09, 2015 17:11 |  #1103

David Arbogast wrote in post #17511059 (external link)
Hehe...and we have a lot of blabla yet to go till we see the camera in June. Then it will be time for pictures!!  :p

Till then we need to keep on discussing the impressive merits of those awesome Sony sensors. ;)

At risk of extending the blabla... the fact the C300 Mk II is claimed to have 15 stops of DR is surely ground breaking if it's a Canon sensor. Or am I missing something?

I.e. does this herald the possibility of future Canon DSLR bodies having significantly more DR, or is there something special/unusual about this camera (or this type of video camera in general) that makes the 15 stop claim implausible/irrelevant from the point of view of a higher resolution stills camera?

If it does mean Canon now have the technology to produce a DSLR with a high DR sensor (and does so in bodies to be released within the next ~12 months) that would surely make the 5Ds's position a bit difficult. Unless they announce a 5Dl for "landscape" (assuming the "s" means "studio").


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Apr 09, 2015 17:23 |  #1104

sploo wrote in post #17511167 (external link)
At risk of extending the blabla... the fact the C300 Mk II is claimed to have 15 stops of DR is surely ground breaking if it's a Canon sensor. Or am I missing something?

I.e. does this herald the possibility of future Canon DSLR bodies having significantly more DR, or is there something special/unusual about this camera (or this type of video camera in general) that makes the 15 stop claim implausible/irrelevant from the point of view of a higher resolution stills camera?

If it does mean Canon now have the technology to produce a DSLR with a high DR sensor (and does so in bodies to be released within the next ~12 months) that would surely make the 5Ds's position a bit difficult. Unless they announce a 5Dl for "landscape" (assuming the "s" means "studio").

An under 10 MP sensor in a $20k body... It may be a technological marvel, but if they issued it as a still camera, the landscapers would be screaming even more. A $20k 5D E (for Expensive) high DR camera...


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Apr 09, 2015 20:46 |  #1105

sploo wrote in post #17511167 (external link)
At risk of extending the blabla... the fact the C300 Mk II is claimed to have 15 stops of DR is surely ground breaking if it's a Canon sensor. Or am I missing something?

I.e. does this herald the possibility of future Canon DSLR bodies having significantly more DR, or is there something special/unusual about this camera (or this type of video camera in general) that makes the 15 stop claim implausible/irrelevant from the point of view of a higher resolution stills camera?

If it does mean Canon now have the technology to produce a DSLR with a high DR sensor (and does so in bodies to be released within the next ~12 months) that would surely make the 5Ds's position a bit difficult. Unless they announce a 5Dl for "landscape" (assuming the "s" means "studio").

The 15 stops of DR are achieved by reading each pixel twice at different exposures and blending them. It's basically HDR for video.


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Apr 09, 2015 21:23 as a reply to  @ mystik610's post |  #1106

Thanks for that - I wondered what video characteristic they were using. With a shutterspeed tied to the fps for video (24, 30 60 fps etc) there is quite a bit of time to read each pixel twice and combine the data! It seems that they also apply a gamma curve when they store the data - it's not raw data being stored.


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Shadowblade
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Apr 09, 2015 23:15 |  #1107

mystik610 wrote in post #17511351 (external link)
The 15 stops of DR are achieved by reading each pixel twice at different exposures and blending them. It's basically HDR for video.

Either way, that's still a real 15 stops of DR and bypasses the low-ISO read noise problem of Canons.

Reading the highlights at ISO 100 and the shadows at ISO 800 essentially flattens out the ISO-DR curve - the extra DR gained this way is as real as the extra DR gained any other way. We already know that Canon sensors are capable of this level of DR performance - it's the read noise at low ISO that causes the curve to flatten out.

And, if they're reading every pixel twice (not just reading every second line at a different ISO like Magic Lantern) there should be no loss of resolution or banding in the areas where one or the other exposures is blown out.




  
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sploo
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Apr 10, 2015 03:38 |  #1108

MakisM1 wrote in post #17511175 (external link)
An under 10 MP sensor in a $20k body... It may be a technological marvel, but if they issued it as a still camera, the landscapers would be screaming even more. A $20k 5D E (for Expensive) high DR camera...

Yea, it (the price, and low MP) did occur to me; in the sense that it's maybe not that realistic for a high MP DSLR at a quarter of the price.

mystik610 wrote in post #17511351 (external link)
The 15 stops of DR are achieved by reading each pixel twice at different exposures and blending them. It's basically HDR for video.

Interesting. Makes sense I guess, and a good solution (for video).

AJSJones wrote in post #17511391 (external link)
Thanks for that - I wondered what video characteristic they were using. With a shutterspeed tied to the fps for video (24, 30 60 fps etc) there is quite a bit of time to read each pixel twice and combine the data! It seems that they also apply a gamma curve when they store the data - it's not raw data being stored.

They do claim RAW recording externally though.

Shadowblade wrote in post #17511494 (external link)
Either way, that's still a real 15 stops of DR and bypasses the low-ISO read noise problem of Canons.

Reading the highlights at ISO 100 and the shadows at ISO 800 essentially flattens out the ISO-DR curve - the extra DR gained this way is as real as the extra DR gained any other way. We already know that Canon sensors are capable of this level of DR performance - it's the read noise at low ISO that causes the curve to flatten out.

And, if they're reading every pixel twice (not just reading every second line at a different ISO like Magic Lantern) there should be no loss of resolution or banding in the areas where one or the other exposures is blown out.

That's true - but then it's surely no different from bracketing and then automatically blending into a single image (frame) in camera. I.e. something that could be achieved by a landscape shooter in post, but with all the inherent problems of subject/scene motion - not a problem for video frames, but certainly an issue for stills.

So, it's a good solution for the video camera, but doesn't actually indicate any real improvements in sensor DR from Canon :-(


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Shadowblade
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Apr 10, 2015 06:56 |  #1109

sploo wrote in post #17511626 (external link)
Yea, it (the price, and low MP) did occur to me; in the sense that it's maybe not that realistic for a high MP DSLR at a quarter of the price.

Interesting. Makes sense I guess, and a good solution (for video).

They do claim RAW recording externally though.

That's true - but then it's surely no different from bracketing and then automatically blending into a single image (frame) in camera. I.e. something that could be achieved by a landscape shooter in post, but with all the inherent problems of subject/scene motion - not a problem for video frames, but certainly an issue for stills.

So, it's a good solution for the video camera, but doesn't actually indicate any real improvements in sensor DR from Canon :-(


Actually, if it's reading the same frame at two separate ISOs, then there isn't a problem with subject/scene motion. It's a true 15-stop DR output achieved with a single exposure, not a multiple-exposure technique. Basically, it's only exposed once, but read twice.




  
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Apr 10, 2015 07:32 |  #1110

Shadowblade wrote in post #17511719 (external link)
Actually, if it's reading the same frame at two separate ISOs, then there isn't a problem with subject/scene motion. It's a true 15-stop DR output achieved with a single exposure, not a multiple-exposure technique. Basically, it's only exposed once, but read twice.

Yup. I have doubt's we'll be seeing this migrate over to high resolution stills any time soon though. Reading a single exposure at two ISO's and blending the images on the fly might be doable on an 8mp sensor with modern processors. Doing so with images from a 50mp sensor is another story.


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