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Thread started 15 Sep 2014 (Monday) 13:55
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5D Mark IV announcement after March 2015

 
CyberDyneSystems
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Apr 14, 2015 14:30 |  #91

I find it intriguing that the landscape people think of the 5D3 as an "action camera" and the action shooters think of it as a high MP full frame camera. The point is it's the in between. The 1D and 7D are the "action cameras" the 1Ds (used to be ) the high MP FF studio camera. For the last 4 years that role has been filled by the 5D3.

I am seeing the 5D4 as continuing along those lines, with a best of all worlds jack of all trades body, not a niche to be found.

I am also thinking that IF the 5D4 is going to have this dual read out tech, that it would be much easier and more affordable to implement in a 30MP camera than a 50MP camera.

Lastly, I still think that 50MP is the real niche, and that the 5D4 will be the high seller.

Of course anything we get in a 5D4 could very well be put in a 5D4s shortly there after.


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sploo
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Apr 14, 2015 15:25 |  #92

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17517089 (external link)
I find it intriguing that the landscape people think of the 5D3 as an "action camera" and the action shooters think of it as a high MP full frame camera. The point is it's the in between. The 1D and 7D are the "action cameras" the 1Ds (used to be ) the high MP FF studio camera. For the last 4 years that role has been filled by the 5D3.

I am seeing the 5D4 as continuing along those lines, with a best of all worlds jack of all trades body, not a niche to be found.

I am also thinking that IF the 5D4 is going to have this dual read out tech, that it would be much easier and more affordable to implement in a 30MP camera than a 50MP camera.

Lastly, I still think that 50MP is the real niche, and that the 5D4 will be the high seller.

Of course anything we get in a 5D4 could very well be put in a 5D4s shortly there after.

Agreed. I also think of the 5D3 as an all-rounder: neither 1D/7D nor 6D.

For that reason I do think that if a potential 5D IVc had the dual-channel readout from the EOS C300 Mark II it would be a huge error of judgement to not include it on a 5D IV. My reasoning is simply that the competition does many/most of the things a 5D3 does, with great DR. Having yet another generation that lags behind in the DR stakes would be very bad.

Other than that, I like the rumoured spec - a bit more resolution (but not unwieldy), potentially even better AF, and more fps for the action moments.


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Shadowblade
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Apr 14, 2015 23:41 |  #93

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17517089 (external link)
I find it intriguing that the landscape people think of the 5D3 as an "action camera" and the action shooters think of it as a high MP full frame camera. The point is it's the in between. The 1D and 7D are the "action cameras" the 1Ds (used to be ) the high MP FF studio camera. For the last 4 years that role has been filled by the 5D3.

I am seeing the 5D4 as continuing along those lines, with a best of all worlds jack of all trades body, not a niche to be found.

I am also thinking that IF the 5D4 is going to have this dual read out tech, that it would be much easier and more affordable to implement in a 30MP camera than a 50MP camera.

Lastly, I still think that 50MP is the real niche, and that the 5D4 will be the high seller.

Of course anything we get in a 5D4 could very well be put in a 5D4s shortly there after.


I don't think anyone's saying that 50MP isn't a niche requirement.

So's a clean ISO 12800, so's 15 stops of DR at base ISO and so's 14fps.

But you don't need all of those in the same camera, and you'd be hard pressed to get it (except maybe in an all-purpose $10k body).

14fps and extreme ISO performance go together for action cameras.

So does 50MP and 15 stops of DR, for landscapes/non-action.

If the dual readout technology is in the 5D4, then essentially what they've done is put a niche technology in their general-purpose body, but left it out of the niche body which could really have benefited from it.

It would be just like giving the 5D4 a sensor with a better high-ISO capability than the 1Dx2.

It's a good thing for the 5D4 to have any of these technologies, of course (better to have it and not use it, than to need it but not have it) but it's both perplexing and frustrating to see the technology on a general-purpose body that doesn't meet your other requirements, but not on the specialist body which does meet your requirements.




  
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sploo
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Apr 15, 2015 03:24 |  #94

Shadowblade wrote in post #17517695 (external link)
...If the dual readout technology is in the 5D4, then essentially what they've done is put a niche technology in their general-purpose body, but left it out of the niche body which could really have benefited from it....

I don't disagree with anything you've said above, but as you've pointed out - just about everyone else is miles ahead of Canon when it comes to low ISO DR. As such, that "niche" is pretty much now a baseline requirement, given the standard of the competition.

I'd argue that AF at f/8 and clean output over HDMI are also pretty niche (the 5D3 shipped with neither). IRC the D800 did, and Canon added them with firmware updates later. I often get the feeling that Canon deliberately leave out features from a body in order to try to differentiate models, whereas Nikon puts as much as they can into a body and still make a profit. In that particular instance I do wonder if Canon would have added the f/8 and HDMI features if it weren't for the fact they were present on the equivalent Nikon.

Obviously you can't just enable high DR with a firmware upgrade, but I'm certainly hoping that as soon as Canon had a hardware DR solution they'd try to get it on all new bodies.

From what we've learned so far though, that, granted, does appear to leave the 5Ds looking a bit uncomfortable. Given that it's based on a "dated" bodyshell (5D3, vs the newer features of the 7D2) it might indicate it's been in the works for some time, and is therefore not the very latest tech they have.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 03:48 |  #95

sploo wrote in post #17517855 (external link)
I don't disagree with anything you've said above, but as you've pointed out - just about everyone else is miles ahead of Canon when it comes to low ISO DR. As such, that "niche" is pretty much now a baseline requirement, given the standard of the competition.

I'd argue that AF at f/8 and clean output over HDMI are also pretty niche (the 5D3 shipped with neither). IRC the D800 did, and Canon added them with firmware updates later. I often get the feeling that Canon deliberately leave out features from a body in order to try to differentiate models, whereas Nikon puts as much as they can into a body and still make a profit. In that particular instance I do wonder if Canon would have added the f/8 and HDMI features if it weren't for the fact they were present on the equivalent Nikon.

Obviously you can't just enable high DR with a firmware upgrade, but I'm certainly hoping that as soon as Canon had a hardware DR solution they'd try to get it on all new bodies.

From what we've learned so far though, that, granted, does appear to leave the 5Ds looking a bit uncomfortable. Given that it's based on a "dated" bodyshell (5D3, vs the newer features of the 7D2) it might indicate it's been in the works for some time, and is therefore not the very latest tech they have.

Nikon, Fujifilm, Pentax, Sony you name it will put in more features because they're not market leaders and have to compete with the behemoth that Canon is. They'll take fiscal risks and add more expensive features, and all Canon has to do is react to them just enough to maximize profit while minimizing pouring too much out of their R&D fund to minimize cost. In other words, the other camera companies are forced to innovate to even survive, while Canon can be more conservative because they have that actual cushion and think out their marketing and product segmentation and naming schemes, etc. Think Cinema EOS vs EOS and xD, xxD, xxxD lineup vs Nikon's lineup which was everywhere until a few years ago. Their current lineup is still a little confusing unless you're up to date with their literature and are a professional or advanced amateur or geek. Also, Canon has invested wisely into other product sectors like surveillance imaging for corporate sector, medical imaging, etc, so they're not at a do or die state all the time like the smaller imaging companies. They do however take serious feedback seriously. Whether they consider LOW-ISO DR as a serious deficiency remains to be seen, but on a 1DX that's been bred for iso 51200, I don't think it is. On a 5DS or 5DIV or 1DXII, it'd be nice to have. The only reason low-ISO is a baseline now is because almost everyone uses Sony sensors now. Canon continues to use their own sensor lineup because of the cost they've poured into setting up their own fabrication, for competitive independence, and for different priorities (skin tone accuracy, high ISO noise and saturation and color accuracy at high ISO, etc), some of which are very different from the Sony mirrorless crowd. Different folks, different strokes.


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sploo
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Apr 15, 2015 03:59 |  #96

idkdc wrote in post #17517882 (external link)
Nikon, Fujifilm, Pentax, Sony you name it will put in more features because they're not market leaders and have to compete with the behemoth that Canon is. They'll take fiscal risks and add more expensive features, and all Canon has to do is react to them just enough to maximize profit while minimizing pouring too much out of their R&D fund to minimize cost. In other words, the other camera companies are forced to innovate to even survive, while Canon can be more conservative because they have that actual cushion and think out their marketing and product segmentation and naming schemes, etc. Think Cinema EOS vs EOS and xD, xxD, xxxD lineup vs Nikon's lineup which was everywhere until a few years ago. Their current lineup is still a little confusing unless you're up to date with their literature and are a professional or advanced amateur or geek. Also, Canon has invested wisely into other product sectors like surveillance imaging for corporate sector, medical imaging, etc, so they're not at a do or die state all the time like the smaller imaging companies. They do however take serious feedback seriously. Whether they consider LOW-ISO DR as a serious deficiency remains to be seen, but on a 1DX that's been bred for iso 51200, I don't think it is. On a 5DS or 5DIV or 1DXII, it'd be nice to have. The only reason low-ISO is a baseline now is because almost everyone uses Sony sensors now. Canon continues to use their own sensor lineup because of the cost they've poured into setting up their own fabrication, for competitive independence, and for different priorities (skin tone accuracy, high ISO noise and saturation and color accuracy at high ISO, etc), some of which are very different from the Sony mirrorless crowd. Different folks, different strokes.

Yep, that's a fair point about smaller players needing to be more adventurous, and certainly Canon seem to have focussed on the high ISO/AF/sports/action segment - though from what I've heard of the D810 vs 5D3 and D4s vs 1Dx, Canon couldn't claim to be significant leaders in that area either (and those Nikon bodies both provide much better low ISO DR).

Not everyone is using Sony sensors (the D4 didn't, not sure about the D4s), so other company's sensor tech is also beating Canon in the DR stakes. That said, even Canon have used Sony sensors in some of their smaller cameras; I remember being pretty embarrassed when I found that lifting shadows on an S100 tended to work better than a 7D.


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Apr 15, 2015 04:29 as a reply to  @ sploo's post |  #97

About to sleep, so I'll try to be concise. 5d3 is an event low light camera with higher fps and more cross type focus points. D810 is a high megapixel all around camera that is cost prohibitive to operate for things like weddings with no viable sraw option. Sony base iso and shadow recovery was based on or following Nikon's footsteps and designs. Nikon tweaks and consults when using Sony sensors if I recall right. The 1dx still beats the d4, d4s brings things in closer but cross type pts, fps and processing power goes to the 1dx with autofocus engaged. Keep in mind, the 810 and d4s are mid cycle releases. The Af system on the 1dx and 5d3 are miles ahead for wedding photography and f/1.2 lenses, the real bread and butter for both camera companies. Sports and landscape photogs don't upgrade as often. No cash. So easy focus at f/3.2 doesn't cut it. I've had to stop down to that frequently on older Nikon gear at least, never an issue with the new Canon af. Hope that clarifies the gaps.


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sploo
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Apr 15, 2015 06:50 |  #98

idkdc wrote in post #17517914 (external link)
About to sleep, so I'll try to be concise. 5d3 is an event low light camera with higher fps and more cross type focus points. D810 is a high megapixel all around camera that is cost prohibitive to operate for things like weddings with no viable sraw option. Sony base iso and shadow recovery was based on or following Nikon's footsteps and designs. Nikon tweaks and consults when using Sony sensors if I recall right. The 1dx still beats the d4, d4s brings things in closer but cross type pts, fps and processing power goes to the 1dx with autofocus engaged. Keep in mind, the 810 and d4s are mid cycle releases. The Af system on the 1dx and 5d3 are miles ahead for wedding photography and f/1.2 lenses, the real bread and butter for both camera companies. Sports and landscape photogs don't upgrade as often. No cash. So easy focus at f/3.2 doesn't cut it. I've had to stop down to that frequently on older Nikon gear at least, never an issue with the new Canon af. Hope that clarifies the gaps.

AFAIU There are no f/1.2 lenses for Nikon as the mount won't allow is, so I'd suspect that AF with f/1.2 lenses would be better on a Canon body ;-)a

Modern CPU power and HDD space makes the larger RAW files from a D810 somewhat moot.

I'd suspect that relatively few shooters spend a significant percentage of their time shooting at f/1.2. Even if the sharpness was good (never seen a lens with good f/1.2 sharpness, though an f/1.4 Otus or Sigma ART comes close).

Not bashing Canon - I have a 5D3 and love it. I just wish it had more low ISO DR, as it's my all round workhorse and I can't afford/justify a parallel Nikon/Sony setup as I don't get bitten by low DR quite enough to spend the extra cash; though some days I do curse that situation.


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Apr 15, 2015 06:57 |  #99

There were a few older 55mm and 58mm f/1.2 lenses but were all Ai, Ai-S or older types - no auto focus. The Ai-S 58mm f/1.2 was apparently produced right up to 1997 though


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Apr 15, 2015 08:12 |  #100

Shadowblade wrote in post #17517695 (external link)
I don't think anyone's saying that 50MP isn't a niche requirement.

So's a clean ISO 12800, so's 15 stops of DR at base ISO and so's 14fps.

But you don't need all of those in the same camera, and you'd be hard pressed to get it (except maybe in an all-purpose $10k body).

14fps and extreme ISO performance go together for action cameras.

So does 50MP and 15 stops of DR, for landscapes/non-action.

If the dual readout technology is in the 5D4, then essentially what they've done is put a niche technology in their general-purpose body, but left it out of the niche body which could really have benefited from it.

It would be just like giving the 5D4 a sensor with a better high-ISO capability than the 1Dx2.

It's a good thing for the 5D4 to have any of these technologies, of course (better to have it and not use it, than to need it but not have it) but it's both perplexing and frustrating to see the technology on a general-purpose body that doesn't meet your other requirements, but not on the specialist body which does meet your requirements.

Knowing Canon, they can stick all of those features inside the 1DX II, then charge your first born child for it.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Apr 15, 2015 09:33 |  #101

windlight wrote in post #17518066 (external link)
Knowing Canon, they can stick all of those features inside the 1DX II, then charge your first born child for it.

Knowing Canon means knowing we'll never see a complete uncompromised solution in a single product...at any price. ;)

I agree with Shadowblade that it will be exceedingly disappointing if Canon puts a high dynamic range sensor in the jack-of-all-trades 5D IV, but fails to also do so in the one camera that needs a high dynamic range sensor the most: the 5DS/R.


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Apr 15, 2015 10:15 |  #102

David Arbogast wrote in post #17518161 (external link)
Knowing Canon means knowing we'll never see a complete uncompromised solution in a single product...at any price. ;)

I agree with Shadowblade that it will be exceedingly disappointing if Canon puts a high dynamic range sensor in the jack-of-all-trades 5D IV, but fails to also do so in the one camera that needs a high dynamic range sensor the most: the 5DS/R.

I'm pretty sure I saw a post from John S, indicating that a test he did on a 5Ds raw showed no significant DR improvement over current Canon bodies. If that's correct then the only question may be whether the 5D IV will have good DR (as we may already have the answer for the 5Ds).

That said, I suppose the 5Ds may have the tech, but sample images so far haven't got it enabled in the firmware.


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Shadowblade
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Apr 15, 2015 10:19 |  #103

idkdc wrote in post #17517914 (external link)
About to sleep, so I'll try to be concise. 5d3 is an event low light camera with higher fps and more cross type focus points. D810 is a high megapixel all around camera that is cost prohibitive to operate for things like weddings with no viable sraw option. Sony base iso and shadow recovery was based on or following Nikon's footsteps and designs. Nikon tweaks and consults when using Sony sensors if I recall right. The 1dx still beats the d4, d4s brings things in closer but cross type pts, fps and processing power goes to the 1dx with autofocus engaged. Keep in mind, the 810 and d4s are mid cycle releases. The Af system on the 1dx and 5d3 are miles ahead for wedding photography and f/1.2 lenses, the real bread and butter for both camera companies. Sports and landscape photogs don't upgrade as often. No cash. So easy focus at f/3.2 doesn't cut it. I've had to stop down to that frequently on older Nikon gear at least, never an issue with the new Canon af. Hope that clarifies the gaps.

Uh, no.

The D4s has the best AF I've used on any camera, bar none, while the D810 is the equal of the 5D3.

In any case, weddings are hardly the most difficult test of AF out there. I know several wedding photographers here in Melbourne alone who have switched entirely to the A7s and A7II, due to even better low-light performance than Canon and better video features, despite the Canon bodies having far superior AF. Then again, they also had no problems shooting weddings with the 5D2 and its primitive AF system.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 10:25 |  #104

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518222 (external link)
primitive AF system.

lulz.

 :p


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Apr 15, 2015 12:50 |  #105

sploo wrote in post #17517979 (external link)
AFAIU There are no f/1.2 lenses for Nikon as the mount won't allow is, so I'd suspect that AF with f/1.2 lenses would be better on a Canon body ;-)a

Modern CPU power and HDD space makes the larger RAW files from a D810 somewhat moot.

I'd suspect that relatively few shooters spend a significant percentage of their time shooting at f/1.2. Even if the sharpness was good (never seen a lens with good f/1.2 sharpness, though an f/1.4 Otus or Sigma ART comes close).

Not bashing Canon - I have a 5D3 and love it. I just wish it had more low ISO DR, as it's my all round workhorse and I can't afford/justify a parallel Nikon/Sony setup as I don't get bitten by low DR quite enough to spend the extra cash; though some days I do curse that situation.

I happen to shoot at f/1.2. Most upper market wedding photogs do. Guess who pays to upgrade their equipment each year?

If you shoot heavy at weddings, the D810 is cost prohibitive. Do you shoot weddings every weekend of the summer? Do you frequently RAID 0 four drives through thunderbolt to get 1000MB/s and then RAID 1 eight drives together for redundancy? That gets expensive, but it's required for high end clients to avoid law suits and provide timely turnarounds even with filled up to brim schedules.


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