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Thread started 15 Sep 2014 (Monday) 13:55
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5D Mark IV announcement after March 2015

 
idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 12:53 |  #106

David Arbogast wrote in post #17518161 (external link)
Knowing Canon means knowing we'll never see a complete uncompromised solution in a single product...at any price. ;)

I agree with Shadowblade that it will be exceedingly disappointing if Canon puts a high dynamic range sensor in the jack-of-all-trades 5D IV, but fails to also do so in the one camera that needs a high dynamic range sensor the most: the 5DS/R.

Like there isn't a compromised solution from any other company. A7s = low-light wonder, contrast detect only, A7r = big megapixel, compressed raws, contrast detect only, A7II = phase detect, lower pixel pitch, not low-light wonder. Canon splitting a 5D lineup is exactly like Sony's lineup, so I don't get the assertion at all, especially in comparison to the other options out there. And I'm not just talking about low ISO DR and the ability to raise shadows, which I do like as I came from Nikon and they did it first (at least before Sony), let's not forget.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 12:58 |  #107

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518222 (external link)
Uh, no.

The D4s has the best AF I've used on any camera, bar none, while the D810 is the equal of the 5D3.

In any case, weddings are hardly the most difficult test of AF out there. I know several wedding photographers here in Melbourne alone who have switched entirely to the A7s and A7II, due to even better low-light performance than Canon and better video features, despite the Canon bodies having far superior AF. Then again, they also had no problems shooting weddings with the 5D2 and its primitive AF system.

Do you shoot with a D4s? I've shot with a D3 and D3s before. They're better at driving autofocus on supertele's, not necessarily better at f/1.4 apertures at the outer edges. The D4 and D4s may be steps up, but I haven't shot with those yet. They only have 15 cross type though, so that's why I've used Canon as my main system these days.
I shoot wedding dances at night and I've shot concerts and raves in the past. Extreme, low-light, they're more difficult than sports. NCAA DIV I, and little league, PAC12, you name it, I've shot it. Do you even shoot ANY of those thing?


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 12:59 |  #108

windlight wrote in post #17518066 (external link)
Knowing Canon, they can stick all of those features inside the 1DX II, then charge your first born child for it.

Agree with that. 1DX pricing when it came out blew my mind. Sort of got desensitized to it when Nikon followed up with the D4.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Apr 15, 2015 13:18 |  #109

idkdc wrote in post #17518429 (external link)
Like there isn't a compromised solution from any other company. A7s = low-light wonder, contrast detect only, A7r = big megapixel, compressed raws, contrast detect only, A7II = phase detect, lower pixel pitch, not low-light wonder. Canon splitting a 5D lineup is exactly like Sony's lineup, so I don't get the assertion at all, especially in comparison to the other options out there. And I'm not just talking about low ISO DR and the ability to raise shadows, which I do like as I came from Nikon and they did it first (at least before Sony), let's not forget.

OK, you've used the a7 family as an example, yet you don't "get the assertion"? Well, I can tell you I would be none too pleased if the a7 had 15-stops DR, but the a7R only had 12-stops. Why can't you get that that would be pretty disappointing?

The 5DS/R is a landscape/architecture​/studio camera. Of all Canon's camera's a landscape-oriented camrea should be equipped with a max-DR sensor.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 13:22 as a reply to  @ David Arbogast's post |  #110

Sure, for landscape, the a7 camera family is great. For other uses, not so much. They're not uncompromised solutions in general (wedding, professional event work). For landscape, they're ideal, but not uncompromised. Everything is compromise unless you have unlimited resources and money. For landscape, the 5DS should come with a max-DR sensor, I agree with that. That a 1DX is a "compromised" camera for anything but landscape, which it wasn't intended for, is a bit of a stretch compared to Sony's A7 lineup and especially their A99 flagship and SLT lineup.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Apr 15, 2015 13:25 |  #111

idkdc wrote in post #17518478 (external link)
For landscape, the 5DS should come with a max-DR sensor, I agree with that.

Cool. :)


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 13:40 |  #112

David Arbogast wrote in post #17518483 (external link)
Cool. :)

LOL, there's a reason Canon has money to pour into R&D for lenses that no one else has like the 8-15, 11-24, 17 tse, and 24 tse, 24 STM, 40 STM, 200-400 1.4, 70-200II (no focus breathing) 100-400II under 2.7k. It's because they've ripped us off / milked us on the camera bodies!


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jonneymendoza
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Apr 15, 2015 15:09 |  #113

David Arbogast wrote in post #17518472 (external link)
OK, you've used the a7 family as an example, yet you don't "get the assertion"? Well, I can tell you I would be none too pleased if the a7 had 15-stops DR, but the a7R only had 12-stops. Why can't you get that that would be pretty disappointing?

The 5DS/R is a landscape/architecture​/studio camera. Of all Canon's camera's a landscape-oriented camrea should be equipped with a max-DR sensor.

whats funny is that the A7s and a7 have higher DR then every single canon camera lol and that is not even sony's highest DR camera..


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jonneymendoza
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Apr 15, 2015 15:11 |  #114

idkdc wrote in post #17518503 (external link)
LOL, there's a reason Canon has money to pour into R&D for lenses that no one else has like the 8-15, 11-24, 17 tse, and 24 tse, 24 STM, 40 STM, 200-400 1.4, 70-200II (no focus breathing) 100-400II under 2.7k. It's because they've ripped us off / milked us on the camera bodies!

They are ripping us off on the lenses too


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 15:17 |  #115

jonneymendoza wrote in post #17518598 (external link)
They are ripping us off on the lenses too

Uh, no they aren't. http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …70_200mm_f_2_8_​g_ssm.html (external link)

11-24 doesn't count because there's no competition. I'd charge for something without competition that just cost me a lot for R&D. The Zeiss 15 costs that much and doesn't zoom or autofocus.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 15:20 as a reply to  @ idkdc's post |  #116

Btw, if any lens from Canon is a rip off, it's their 50mm f/1.8. Hopefully due for replacement soon.


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sploo
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Apr 15, 2015 15:32 |  #117

idkdc wrote in post #17518428 (external link)
I happen to shoot at f/1.2. Most upper market wedding photogs do. Guess who pays to upgrade their equipment each year?

Somewhat sweeping statements - but I don't have data on what percentage of wedding shooters use f/1.2, or the upgrade rates for different types of professionals. Regardless of what you're shooting, if a pro is putting many 1000s of frames through a body a year it's likely they'll need to be replaced fairly soon. Granted a sports or wildlife guy invested in the big white primes is unlikely to be able to afford regular lens upgrades.

idkdc wrote in post #17518428 (external link)
If you shoot heavy at weddings, the D810 is cost prohibitive. Do you shoot weddings every weekend of the summer? Do you frequently RAID 0 four drives through thunderbolt to get 1000MB/s and then RAID 1 eight drives together for redundancy? That gets expensive, but it's required for high end clients to avoid law suits and provide timely turnarounds even with filled up to brim schedules.

I work for a high-end storage company. How many Petabytes (and how many GB/s) do you want? ;-)a

But, seriously, average D810 raws are what ~42MB?, and 5D3 raws are ~30MB. That's not a massive difference in percentage terms, and a (rumoured) 28MP 5D4 would obviously be closer to the D810 file sizes. It's more, certainly, but it's not like it's twice the size.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 15:54 |  #118

sploo wrote in post #17518636 (external link)
Somewhat sweeping statements - but I don't have data on what percentage of wedding shooters use f/1.2, or the upgrade rates for different types of professionals. Regardless of what you're shooting, if a pro is putting many 1000s of frames through a body a year it's likely they'll need to be replaced fairly soon. Granted a sports or wildlife guy invested in the big white primes is unlikely to be able to afford regular lens upgrades.

I work for a high-end storage company. How many Petabytes (and how many GB/s) do you want? ;-)a

But, seriously, average D810 raws are what ~42MB?, and 5D3 raws are ~30MB. That's not a massive difference in percentage terms, and a (rumoured) 28MP 5D4 would obviously be closer to the D810 file sizes. It's more, certainly, but it's not like it's twice the size.

I shoot weddings and have second shot for tip of the top wedding photogs from NY, SF and LA. Have you? Have you been on the sidelines of a PAC12 football field? All old 1D/D3 bodies and mark i supertelephoto lenses except for a couple of guys. No one upgrades if they don't have to unless they're the elite few who shoot at the olympics, and even those guys got laid off from their staff jobs and cut out of 401k, retirement, health insurance, etc. Or they're amateurs doing it for fun or minimal pay, like a science professor earning 300k or something stupid like that. There's probably less than a handful of staff guys each game that have their equipment paid for by major organizations.

Average D800 files are 50-60 MB from the last time I shot with them, but it was a few years ago. Regardless, the difference adds up when you're shooting 2000-6000 photos per weekend for 12-36 consecutive weekends.

So, please, preach more.


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sploo
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Apr 15, 2015 17:21 |  #119

idkdc wrote in post #17518662 (external link)
I shoot weddings and have second shot for tip of the top wedding photogs from NY, SF and LA. Have you? Have you been on the sidelines of a PAC12 football field? All old 1D/D3 bodies and mark i supertelephoto lenses except for a couple of guys. No one upgrades if they don't have to unless they're the elite few who shoot at the olympics, and even those guys got laid off from their staff jobs and cut out of 401k, retirement, health insurance, etc. Or they're amateurs doing it for fun or minimal pay, like a science professor earning 300k or something stupid like that. There's probably less than a handful of staff guys each game that have their equipment paid for by major organizations.

Average D800 files are 50-60 MB from the last time I shot with them, but it was a few years ago. Regardless, the difference adds up when you're shooting 2000-6000 photos per weekend for 12-36 consecutive weekends.

So, please, preach more.

Not quite sure where the need for defensive aggression has come from. Let's please keep discussions polite and constructive.

Let me put it in simpler terms: one guy is just one guy from a statistical point of view. An experienced shooter will certainly know way more about his industry and the norms than a layman, but what he sees isn't necessarily statistically representative of "the world". I.e. any kind of "most people do/do not" type statements are always on shaky ground without good data to back them up.

In terms of the RAW sizes; I'm assuming then those must have mostly been higher ISO shots? The data I'd seen for the D810 was in the low 40s, but perhaps that was mostly for lower ISO images.

Working on an average of 20MB more data (per shot) than a 5D3; 6000 images per session is an increase of ~120GB. 36 sessions is ~4TB. Let's say you need to add four 4TB drives to actually get another 4TB (due to mirroring and other backups), that's just $640 for a set of WD Red SATA drives. Granted that doesn't take into account overheads of enclosures, or the increased costs if you were going down the SAS route, but it's still relatively small compared with the costs of pro camera gear.

BTW You might get better efficiency in terms of disks vs available capacity (but still good performance and redundancy) with a large RAID6 array, rather than RAID 0+1. You can call that last bit preaching if you'd like; but it's intended to be a well meaning suggestion.


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Shadowblade
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Apr 15, 2015 17:22 |  #120

idkdc wrote in post #17518428 (external link)
I happen to shoot at f/1.2. Most upper market wedding photogs do. Guess who pays to upgrade their equipment each year?

If you shoot heavy at weddings, the D810 is cost prohibitive. Do you shoot weddings every weekend of the summer? Do you frequently RAID 0 four drives through thunderbolt to get 1000MB/s and then RAID 1 eight drives together for redundancy? That gets expensive, but it's required for high end clients to avoid law suits and provide timely turnarounds even with filled up to brim schedules.

The gear list at the bottom of your post doesn't even include a single prime lens, let alone an f/1.2 lens. Credibility gone.

Besides, 'most' upper market wedding photographers do not shoot at f/1.2. Nikon doesn't even offer f/1.2, which discounts half of all wedding photographers already. And zooms are the bread and butter of most wedding photographers, especially during the ceremony - the 70-200 f/2.8 especially. As far as primes go, I see a lot more being done with the 200 f/2 and 135 f/2 than with any f/1.2 lens, and mostly outside the ceremony itself.




  
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