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Thread started 15 Sep 2014 (Monday) 13:55
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5D Mark IV announcement after March 2015

 
idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 18:22 |  #136

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518841 (external link)
Yes, I'm a landscape photographer. Also wildlife, although that's secondary. And all my photography is accountable for my own income - if I don't produce the images, I don't earn anything (at least not from the income stream that comes from photography). I also happen to have helped found a wedding photography business (despite not being a photography for them, since I don't shoot weddings myself) and worked with them on their equipment, technical and studio side of things, so I am very familiar with what they need and how they shoot. And short lenses at f/1.2-f/1.4 are rarely part of the equation when shooting action - only occasionally in posed shots where things aren't moving (and, even then, they prefer the 200 f/2 or the 70-200).

We might just have different markets and working distances - I imagine Australia has longer working distances outdoors at your weddings? Prob the best photographer I've worked with shot three 5DIII's and three primes from that selection I just mentioned. Standard lenses in the US here. That's if you're with someone shooting primes. Some people do zooms, others do solely primes. I mix and match, but I'll always need the 50mm, as much as I hate the field curvature on that lens. It's like a necessary evil in this locale. I would love to shoot nothing but 200 f/2 all day, yeah, but the working distances don't work out that way here, especially at smaller venues. We'll use those shorter lenses wide open all the time for fine art reportage style instead of too much posing, and it pays off when the paycheck comes. It's tough and requires more, or at least a harder-to-find skill, that's why we can charge more.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:30 |  #137

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518851 (external link)
Nope, the sensor is perfect for event photography. Not the camera. It has slow AF and a limited flash system. It was advertised as a compact, low-light solution, not an event photographer's camera. The same sensor can be used in many different applications, so long as it fulfils the requirements for each application.

I think that's a mistake, honestly, especially at the price it's going at (about the same or near the D750, last time I checked). See my follow up at the end of this message.

Wasn't me. In any case, it's not true. The 1Dx isn't compromised at all for its intended purpose. As a sports camera, it needs high frame rate, a good buffer, high ISO capability and a fast AF system. It has all of these things - it's not compromised. The 5D3 is a general-purpose action camera. It needs a bit of everything, not too much of anything, and has it. It's not a compromised design. The 5Ds, on the other hand, is compromised. It's sold as an idea camera for architecture, landscapes and studio work. This means it requires high resolution and low-ISO image quality. Yet, if the 5D4 and C300II rumours are true, it's lacking in DR compared to Canon's own other offerings, and compared even to entry-level models from other manufacturers. It's compromised not because it can't do everything under the sun, but because it's worse than Canon's own other offerings even at the thing it's supposed to be best at.

I mixed you up with the other guy then. Completely agree with you, the 1DX is good at what it does, the 5DSR could use better low-ISO DR. I can work around the the DR, tbh, but others can't and some situations don't allow you to, so it is nice to have. I suspect the shadow noise recovery will be better if it's like the 7DII, and I think that's the real problem with the Canon sensor, but that's another discussion for another time. Either way, I support that DR improvements should have been included. I suspect it's just Canon milking their customers for two product cycles instead of one, as I've grown accustomed and resigned to. A 5DSRII will have better DR if the DR range of the first one truly impacts sales. My guess is that it won't, not in significant numbers in the grand scheme of things, but regardless, I understand and empathize with you on DR there.

The A7s I already explained. The others are not compromised - they represent Sony's best action cameras. As such, they have Sony's best crop-sensor high ISO, frame rate and AF performance. They're not very good at what they do, but they're not compromised designs because Sony doesn't have anything better. It's not like Sony released them, then, six months later, released an A7r with a faster AF system and higher frame rate.

Again, I think I confused you with the other guy who said Canon doesn't have a single body without compromise. I'd personally like to use A7s sensor for event, but until an A9 is released or whatever, it's a bit of a hole in their lineup, one they may or may not care about since the Sony rep I've spoken with said they care more about amateurs than professionals using their products.


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idkdc
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Apr 15, 2015 18:33 |  #138

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518857 (external link)
A camera is not 'compromised' if they don't happen to be the best at everything.

It's compromised if it's specially designed for one purpose, but falls short on a key aspect of performance compared to the manufacturer's own other offerings. For example, if a camera that's designed to be Nikon's best action camera turned out to have poorer high-ISO capability than the D810. Not if it's poorer than Canon's 1Dx, but if it's poorer than Nikon's own other efforts, since it then indicates that they've compromised on performance and not put their best capability into a camera explicitly designed for that purpose.

I can't imagine what I would use an A7s for if not for seeing in the dark at high ISO. Call it poor judgement, oversight, or design choice, I'm not a fan of taking away phase detect at almost twice the price in an identical body. Same as the 5DSR DR vs. a 5DIV or C300II.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:35 |  #139

idkdc wrote in post #17518861 (external link)
We might just have different markets and working distances - I imagine Australia has longer working distances outdoors at your weddings? Prob the best photographer I've worked with shot three 5DIII's and three primes from that selection I just mentioned. Standard lenses in the US here. That's if you're with someone shooting primes. Some people do zooms, others do solely primes. I mix and match, but I'll always need the 50mm, as much as I hate the field curvature on that lens. It's like a necessary evil in this locale. I would love to shoot nothing but 200 f/2 all day, yeah, but the working distances don't work out that way here, especially at smaller venues. We'll use those shorter lenses wide open all the time for fine art reportage style instead of too much posing, and it pays off when the paycheck comes. It's tough and requires more, or at least a harder-to-find skill, that's why we can charge more.

Lots of outdoor shots here - on the beach, in city laneways and in parks. The 200L is ideal. So are the 135L and 85L, to a lesser extent (although the 85L won't keep up with any kind of action, regardless of the AF system attached to it). Thing is, you usually have room to step back, even if taking a large group shot.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 18:37 |  #140

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518793 (external link)
It's nothing to do with the splitting of the lineup and everything to do which what features makes it into which model.

Using a Sony sensor.

Nikon made sensors before Sony started making theirs. They collaborated together on the D800 to bring costs down since Nikon didn't have too much cash lying around to keep pouring back into sensor fabrication. The D700 and D3 and D3s sensors were Nikon manufactured, if I recall correctly. Those were the golden years of Nikon ergonomics and event photography, btw, and they clearly had a shadow recovery advantage over Canon back then before the D800 was ever announced. I could still get a sellable image off of the D700 if I underexposed to pitch black. It was that good. So I don't get why Sony gets all the credit for collaborating with Nikon and getting pointers from their technicians. Exmor is great, but to my recollection, it is rooted in their first collab with Nikon.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:38 |  #141

idkdc wrote in post #17518870 (external link)
Again, I think I confused you with the other guy who said Canon doesn't have a single body without compromise. I'd personally like to use A7s sensor for event, but until an A9 is released or whatever, it's a bit of a hole in their lineup, one they may or may not care about since the Sony rep I've spoken with said they care more about amateurs than professionals using their products.

That's a hole in their lineup, not any single product being compromised.

Just like the huge, gaping, landscape-and-architecture shaped hole that Canon's had for years, until somewhat filled by the 5Ds. It didn't mean that the 5D3 or 1Dx were compromised in what they did - just that Canon didn't have anything to fill in the roles those two cameras didn't do so well.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 18:40 |  #142

idkdc wrote in post #17518877 (external link)
Nikon made sensors before Sony started making theirs. They collaborated together on the D800 to bring costs down since Nikon didn't have too much cash lying around to keep pouring back into sensor fabrication. The D700 and D3 and D3s sensors were Nikon manufactured, if I recall correctly. Those were the golden years of Nikon ergonomics and event photography, btw, and they clearly had a shadow recovery advantage over Canon back then before the D800 was ever announced. I could still get a sellable image off of the D700 if I underexposed to pitch black. It was that good. So I don't get why Sony gets all the credit for collaborating with Nikon and getting pointers from their technicians. Exmor is great, but to my recollection, it is rooted in their first collab with Nikon.

The D700, D3 and D3s also didn't have the DR of later models and you couldn't just lift shadows with them (although they were better than the 5D2's tartan pattern). That came with the D3x, which was a Sony sensor (the same as in the A900).




  
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Apr 15, 2015 18:41 |  #143

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518875 (external link)
Lots of outdoor shots here - on the beach, in city laneways and in parks. The 200L is ideal. So are the 135L and 85L, to a lesser extent (although the 85L won't keep up with any kind of action, regardless of the AF system attached to it). Thing is, you usually have room to step back, even if taking a large group shot.

Yeah, that's cool. I don't get that chance at every wedding except the celebrities with huge compounds that I'm not supposed to discuss and summer weddings. Most of my weddings during the winter we'll start in ritzy hotel rooms, so that's where the 85L and 50L come in, or end up on rooftop restaurants in the city (LA, NY), so there's not that much working distance. 135L was always too long or incredibly uncompromising on framing, so that's why I ultimately sold it for the 70-200 IS II. I think it's mostly an urban vs. rural/coastal thing. Sounds like the life down there. I do miss my 135L.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:43 |  #144

idkdc wrote in post #17518874 (external link)
I can't imagine what I would use an A7s for if not for seeing in the dark at high ISO. Call it poor judgement, oversight, or design choice, I'm not a fan of taking away phase detect at almost twice the price in an identical body. Same as the 5DSR DR vs. a 5DIV or C300II.

I don't think Sony had the technology to do it at the time - only on the 24MP sensor, which had a special filter stack in front to accommodate it. The A7s was developed alongside the A7r and A7, although released later because it wasn't ready. The A7II is a newer-generation model.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 18:44 as a reply to  @ Shadowblade's post |  #145

They still had way better DR than the 5DII. I did lift the shadows like crazy, but perhaps I didn't underexpose enough. :) I could capture sky and foreground in one exposure without having to stack exposures. I have no doubt that the newer sensors are better, but I think Nikon/Sony always had a lead over Canon in DR, as Canon always had a lead over Nikon/Sony in color accuracy. Different priorities for different folks is my understanding.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:47 |  #146

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518887 (external link)
I don't think Sony had the technology to do it at the time - only on the 24MP sensor, which had a special filter stack in front to accommodate it. The A7s was developed alongside the A7r and A7, although released later because it wasn't ready. The A7II is a newer-generation model.

I thought the A7 had phase detect even though it was released at the same time. A7II just added IBIS. Either way, I'd consider buying the A7SII if they added contrast detect, but it's a bit spendy to have three camera systems for me.


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Apr 15, 2015 18:58 |  #147

idkdc wrote in post #17518890 (external link)
I thought the A7 had phase detect even though it was released at the same time. A7II just added IBIS. Either way, I'd consider buying the A7SII if they added contrast detect, but it's a bit spendy to have three camera systems for me.

The A7 had phase detection. That was due to the AA filter in front of the sensor. The A7r had no such filter for maximal resolution, and the A7s needed a different one that couldn't accommodate phase detection. I believe they're now improving the technology so that you no longer need the AA filter for phase detection.

I'd still very much like to see the A7s sensor (or an updated, 18-24MP version) in a full, pro-featured action body. But that would be more likely to come from Nikon rather than Sony - Sony just doesn't have the lens selection to be a credible player in action photography.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 18:59 |  #148

idkdc wrote in post #17518888 (external link)
They still had way better DR than the 5DII. I did lift the shadows like crazy, but perhaps I didn't underexpose enough. :) I could capture sky and foreground in one exposure without having to stack exposures. I have no doubt that the newer sensors are better, but I think Nikon/Sony always had a lead over Canon in DR, as Canon always had a lead over Nikon/Sony in color accuracy. Different priorities for different folks is my understanding.

Not really. They just had better usable DR. The bottom few stops of the 5D2/1Ds3 were unusable due to pattern noise, unless you were somehow shooting a high-key image at high ISO. The 5D3, then the 6D, improved the usability of these bottom stops, but didn't actually increase the technical DR.




  
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Apr 15, 2015 19:28 |  #149

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518903 (external link)
The A7 had phase detection. That was due to the AA filter in front of the sensor. The A7r had no such filter for maximal resolution, and the A7s needed a different one that couldn't accommodate phase detection. I believe they're now improving the technology so that you no longer need the AA filter for phase detection.

Gotcha.

I'd still very much like to see the A7s sensor (or an updated, 18-24MP version) in a full, pro-featured action body. But that would be more likely to come from Nikon rather than Sony - Sony just doesn't have the lens selection to be a credible player in action photography.

I'd drink to that! Nikon body would be better, yeah.


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Apr 15, 2015 19:32 |  #150

Shadowblade wrote in post #17518906 (external link)
Not really. They just had better usable DR. The bottom few stops of the 5D2/1Ds3 were unusable due to pattern noise, unless you were somehow shooting a high-key image at high ISO. The 5D3, then the 6D, improved the usability of these bottom stops, but didn't actually increase the technical DR.

D700 DR was more than enough for my margin of error for event, but I understand if you need more. I see high low iso DR range as mainly a great advantage for long 6 stop exposures towards dusk and dawn where the light changes too much to bracket that many shots. I have grad ND and reverse grad ND to deal with that for now, and Galen Rowell would use the same techniques for lower DR film, but I can see the advantage of more DR as even Rowell moved to Velvia and something else when higher DR was possible. For event though, I think the usable DR was pretty good for the D700 unless I horribly screwed up the exposure...just never did. Ever. Not even once for three years of active shooting with it. Not at least to have to resort to blending more than what was in the single exposure of that sensor. Maybe I just got lucky, maybe not.


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