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Thread started 15 Apr 2015 (Wednesday) 22:08
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E.C. in Manual mode, explain it to a 4 year old

 
CyberDyneSystems
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Apr 15, 2015 22:08 |  #1

OK, maybe not quite 4...

I'm reading a lot about the desire for or passion for using exposure compensation while set to manual exposure.

I'm not quite a 4 year old, I shoot in manual regularly, understand all the variables, (light, aperture, shutter speed and iso )
But I just can't wrap my head around how EC can add anything to setting a manual exposure, or make the camera operation easier.

I also grasp that it involves auto iso, but that confuses me even more.

No judgment here, I am always interested and excited to learn something new!

Please explain in detail step by step?

Thanks.


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Apr 15, 2015 23:11 |  #2
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Every camera I've ever owned that had adjustable shutter speed and aperture also had EC in manual mode. Most cameras I've owned only had two modes: ON/OFF. If you have a meter, and can adjust the amount of light getting to the recording media, you have EC.

Auto ISO is an AUTO mode, just like Av & Tv. Auto is by definition, not manual. Likewise, vice versa. Think automotive transmissions.

It occurs to me that I am not understanding the problem.

Jake, does not quite 4 mean you are 3? Nice 'stache for 3. :)


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Wilt
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Post edited over 3 years ago by Wilt.
     
Apr 16, 2015 00:13 |  #3

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
But I just can't wrap my head around how EC can add anything to setting a manual exposure, or make the camera operation easier.

If we use the Pentax implementation, the concept is quite easy even for the 4 year old to grasp. Pentax has the TAv mode. So using our Auto Settings (two of three points of the Exposure Triangle)


  1. In Tv mode, you pick Time and ISO, but use EC to the the meter to give less/more exposure to compensate for an extra dark/bright scene or subject via its choice of biased Aperture .
  2. In Av mode, you pick Aperture and ISO, but use EC to the the meter to give less/more exposure to compensate for an extra dark/bright scene or subject via its choice of biased Shutter Speed.
  3. In TAv mode (Pentax TAv), you pick Time and Aperture , but use EC to the the meter to give less/more exposure to compensate for an extra dark/bright scene or subject via its choice of biased ISO.


Admittedly things get more complex when you have the camera choose TWO, and the photographer only sets ONE of the Exposure Triangle triplets.

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Mark0159
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Apr 16, 2015 02:03 |  #4

exposure compensation doesn't matter in manual. if your in manual you can adjust any of the settings in that effect light coming in to the camera.


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Apr 16, 2015 02:15 |  #5

Heya,

Just taking a stab, but here's the way I see it as an actual benefit, with a situation to illustrate the concept:

You're river side with your gear set up and awaiting an eagle.
The weather is not ideal, there are large clouds and pretty good gusts of wind.
You are using manual and pre-petered for your intended paths that you intend to capture the eagle from your vantage point.
While shooting, a large cloud passes while you're panning and taking shots.
You don't want your shutter or aperture changing. You don't have time to change ISO yourself.
So your AUTO ISO with EC dialed in for your metering preference, changes the ISO for your so that you get your exposure.

So one might question, why not just use AV and set ISO to be high enough to ensure a fast enough shutter if a cloud passes? But that would require the ability to set a minimum shutter speed close to 1/1000s, and not so much ISO as to force something faster than 1/8000s. And you're still using EC and the meter in this semi-automatic method.

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Apr 16, 2015 02:16 |  #6

You set the aperture and shutter speed, camera sets the ISO. Great auto mode right? But remember that the meter will always be centered. If you are shooting the proverbial black cat on a pile of coal or a bride against a white curtain you will not want the meter centered. EC in manual+auto ISO will allow you to adjust the meter down or up by adjusting the ISO.


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Apr 16, 2015 04:41 as a reply to  @ rrblint's post |  #7

I have Nikon camera so I can't speak for other brands.

In full Manual mode (Auto ISO = OFF) exposure compensation does not work. It has no effect on exposure. That's why this mode is called Manual. You need to manually set the time, aperture and ISO value for a proper exposure. I set the aperture for the desired depth of field, I set the time I need for the shot (stationary or moving subject, ….. etc) and then I set ISO for proper exposure.
I usually use this mode when the light is more or less constant – for example, shooting an event in a gym with constant lights.

When I shoot in Manual mode with Auto ISO=ON, camera calculates proper ISO value by itself for proper exposure.
I set the aperture for the desired depth of field, I set the time I need for the shot and camera sets the ISO value. In this mode I can use exposure compensation to tell the camera to use different ISO value – I can change ISO value with exposure compensation.
I use this mode when the light is not changing a lot and I have no time to set all parameters manually.

When the light is changing a lot (for example, outside – bright sun, deep shades, …etc) I usually shoot in aperture priority with Auto ISO.
First I set the longest time the camera can use (for example 1/125 – the camera won't set longer time then 1/125). Then I set the aperture to control the depth of field.
The camera will set proper ISO by itself to get proper exposure. It will start with ISO 100 and first try to change the time. If I shoot in the sun and I set aperture to f8, the camera will set other parameters to, for example: 1/640, ISO100. If I then move to deep shade with low light and with f8, the camera will first change time. If the light is low enough, the camera will first change time from 1/640 to 1/125 limit, then the camera will use higher ISO to get proper exposure.


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Mathmans
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Apr 16, 2015 04:47 as a reply to  @ Mathmans's post |  #8

'' You set the aperture and shutter speed, camera sets the ISO. Great auto mode right? But remember that the meter will always be centered. If you are shooting the proverbial black cat on a pile of coal or a bride against a white curtain you will not want the meter centered. EC in manual+auto ISO will allow you to adjust the meter down or up by adjusting the ISO. ‘’


The problem is, that the camera will not want to center the meter. In the case of a bride with light background the camera will underexpose trying to get mid gray and in the case of a cat, the camera will overexpose in a try, to make the dark scene a mid gray.


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Post edited over 3 years ago by msowsun.
     
Apr 16, 2015 06:26 |  #9

rrblint wrote in post #17519331 (external link)
You set the aperture and shutter speed, camera sets the ISO. Great auto mode right? But remember that the meter will always be centered. If you are shooting the proverbial black cat on a pile of coal or a bride against a white curtain you will not want the meter centered. EC in manual+auto ISO will allow you to adjust the meter down or up by adjusting the ISO.

Good explanation....

Keep in mind that Manual mode with Auto ISO is not really a manual mode. You are just swapping one variable for another.

Tv mode: fixed shutter speed, fixed ISO, variable aperture
Av mode: fixed aperture, fixed ISO, variable shutter speed
M mode (with auto ISO) : fixed aperture, fixed shutter speed, variable ISO.

Some times I will shoot Manual mode with Auto ISO, and there have been a few times I wished I had EC while in Manual mode.


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Apr 16, 2015 08:09 |  #10

msowsun wrote in post #17519481 (external link)
Good explanation....

Keep in mind that Manual mode with Auto ISO is not really a manual mode. You are just swapping one variable for another.

Tv mode: fixed shutter speed, fixed ISO, variable aperture
Av mode: fixed aperture, fixed ISO, variable shutter speed
M mode (with auto ISO) : fixed aperture, fixed shutter speed, variable ISO.

Some times I will shoot Manual mode with Auto ISO, and there have been a few times I wished I had EC while in Manual mode.

This (Mike's post above) is the way I think of it. Manual with Auto ISO is essentially an auto exposure mode, but allowing you to dictate both shutter speed and depth of field (when you could only do one of the two with Tv or Av).

Obviously that means you might find the auto exposure is consistently "off" in your current environment, and would want to tweak it using EC - meaning the camera would choose a slightly higher or lower ISO; as opposed to affecting aperture or shutter speed, as it would for Tv or Av respectively (when you've got Auto ISO off in those modes anyway).


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Apr 16, 2015 08:25 |  #11
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Personally, I don't think EC in Manual with auto-ISO makes any sense. It may be the way I shoot, though. I use manual (obviously) when I want the exposure to stay the same. Such as when the lighting constant, but light and dark (uniforms?) may throw the meter off. If I had auto-ISO turned on, it would defeat the purpose of Manual.

I usually leave my Canon bodies at +2/3EC when shooting CR2, and +1/3 for JPG when using Av/Tv. It is easy enough, when shooting Manual, to dial in EC as desired. No problems here, as I'm not use auto-ISO.

I think my problem is that I can't wrap my aging brain around why someone would want EC with auto-ISO in Manual mode. Can someone provide a scenario, please? Just as I typed this, I get the feeling we've been down this road before. Not sure if its Deja Vu, or Al stopping by for a moment.


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Post edited over 3 years ago by msowsun.
     
Apr 16, 2015 08:40 |  #12

The last time I used Manual mode and Auto ISO was when shooting my son's Rugby game near dusk. I used manual mode 1/500 f/4 and auto ISO.

I wished I could dial in some EC as the action moved from the areas still lit by the setting sun to areas completely in the shadows.


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Apr 16, 2015 08:42 as a reply to  @ GeoKras1989's post |  #13

GeoKras,

I think the problem is calling it "Manual with..." while it's just another form of auto-exposure in which the camera only has ISO to play with. You control depth of field and speed (action) and the camera adjusts ISO on the fly for you. That's when EC can help.
When you really want complete control you switch to Manual.

Don't call it Manual and you should see the possibilities for the people who would like to use it.




  
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Apr 16, 2015 08:43 |  #14
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msowsun wrote in post #17519595 (external link)
The last time I used it was when shooting my son's Rugby game near dusk. I used manual mode 1/500 f/4 and auto ISO.

I wished I could dial in some EC as the action moved from the areas still lit by the setting sun to areas completely in the shadows.

Auto-ISO didn't help with that transition?


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Apr 16, 2015 08:46 |  #15

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17519598 (external link)
Auto-ISO didn't help with that transition?

No because I like to slightly over expose when shooting in dark areas and slightly underexposed in bright areas.


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