Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Wildlife Talk 
Thread started 12 Jan 2015 (Monday) 13:17
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Live baiting using animals for photography

 
CyberDyneSystems
Admin (type T-2000)
Avatar
52,171 posts
Gallery: 192 photos
Likes: 9044
Joined Apr 2003
Location: Rhode Island USA
Post edited over 6 years ago by CyberDyneSystems.
     
Jan 15, 2015 14:26 |  #46

Larry Johnson wrote in post #17383827 (external link)
Well, that's not the point I was trying to make. I believe the OP (i.e. thread starter) believes that LIVE baiting is unethical because it's inhumane, in his opinion, more so than being a cheesy, half-assed way to capture wildlife in action. Maybe the OP/TS will chime in at some point.


I would hope that the issue in question is the impact on the subject, and the effect it could have on it's ability to continue living as it should vs. being trained to take food from people, failing to hunt, or getting itself killed by getting to close to something it shouldn't (traffic etc..)

One of the replies to this thread came from a member who's avatar is a bear*.
I would surely hope that he and everyone here reading this thread can fully understand the implications and concerns that would arise from baiting a bear?

The end result in a worse case scenario is loss of life. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate the mouse down around a 1/2, and the bear up there at 9.5, and you can decide where the human that the bear mauls ends up at based on whether it is some innocent in the wrong place or the wrong time, or if it's the photographer that was feeding him to "get the shot"

* In no way am I assuming or accusing anyone of baiting bears! I merely used the bear as example as I felt that ALL of us could then grasp the real gravity of the situation. When we discuss the impact of baiting on birds of prey for some reason many miss this.


GEAR LIST
CDS' HOT LINKS
Jake Hegnauer Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
hollis_f
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
10,649 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 85
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Sussex, UK
     
Jan 15, 2015 16:41 |  #47

Neilyb wrote in post #17384065 (external link)
Now those buzzards, even if you know where they are likely to perch, will flee at a movement or noise...

We have a pair that breed in a tree at the end of our archery field. They're quite easy to spot flying around that area.


Frank Hollis - Retired mass spectroscopist
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll complain about the withdrawal of his free fish entitlement.
Gear Website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
johnf3f
Goldmember
Avatar
4,092 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 657
Joined Apr 2010
Location: Wales
     
Jan 15, 2015 17:23 |  #48

hollis_f wrote in post #17382603 (external link)
So, you don't think I should put bird feeders out in my garden?

I was referring to wildlife in its natural habitat, actually with the state of my garden I could probably include it as natural scrub habitat!
Garden bird feeders certainly help a large number of species in the UK so I have no problem with them. I was thinking more on the lines of getting birds/mammals habituated to visiting an area and then having a food source cut off when the photographer has got their shots.
Perhaps I should have made that clearer.


Life is for living, cameras are to capture it (one day I will learn how!).

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Larry ­ Johnson
Goldmember
Avatar
1,356 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 464
Joined Sep 2011
Location: Virginia
Post edited over 6 years ago by Larry Johnson. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 15, 2015 17:31 |  #49

oscardog wrote in post #17383865 (external link)
Those breeder mice would have been taken home and killed quickly by a snake and eaten. Not put in a cage a placed in a field to be tormented by raptors all day. And then freed into some random, unfamiliar place where it may have starved or froze to death. Could also spread parasites and such couldnt it?

Now you're just making up your own reality. You have absolutely know idea how long the caged mouse was in the field or how long the kestrel hovered over it, now do you? Freed in some random unfamiliar field? With all do respect, don't make me laugh. What field could possiby be familiar to a mouse bought from a pet shop. What would you have done with the mouse.

Oh, forgot to mention, you should have seen that mouse attack and devoir an earthworm that I fed it. Poor little worm.

I'm betting the OP is just sitting back laughing at this thread that he started and has never responded to yet.


_______________
Ain't Nature Grand!
Shooting 7D2 with Canon 400mm, f/5.6.
60D, canon 18-135 EFS, and 1.4 extender in the bag.
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
myphotographic
Member
Avatar
218 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Oct 2010
Post edited over 6 years ago by myphotographic.
     
Jan 15, 2015 18:40 |  #50

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17384089 (external link)
I would hope that the issue in question is the impact on the subject, and the effect it could have on it's ability to continue living as it should vs. being trained to take food from people, failing to hunt, or getting itself killed by getting to close to something it shouldn't (traffic etc..)

One of the replies to this thread came from a member who's avatar is a bear*.
I would surely hope that he and everyone here reading this thread can fully understand the implications and concerns that would arise from baiting a bear?

The end result in a worse case scenario is loss of life. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate the mouse down around a 1/2, and the bear up there at 9.5, and you can decide where the human that the bear mauls ends up at based on whether it is some innocent in the wrong place or the wrong time, or if it's the photographer that was feeding him to "get the shot"

* In no way am I assuming or accusing anyone of baiting bears! I merely used the bear as example as I felt that ALL of us could then grasp the real gravity of the situation. When we discuss the impact of baiting on birds of prey for some reason many miss this.

* Checks all the avatars *

You must be talking about the bear to the left. It's actually situation I've been pondering and meaning to comment on in this very thread. It's taken at the Martinselkosen Wildife Centre in Finland, and is actually a baited situation. Martinselkosen is a family-run concern that have now been feeding the bears since '91, doing so every day from the end of winter until the Finnish hunting season starts (when all the bears know to cross over in to the unpopulated Russian forest). While it's common for bear-human interactions to turn problematic when food is involved, at Martinselkosen that doesn't seem to be the case. It's a very very sparsely populated region of boreal forest, and it's not bringing the bears in to conflict with people. It's a situation that does not seem to be detrimental to the bears, and by providing a counter-experience to the continuing traditional Finnish past-time of shooting bears for sport, there's an argument to be made that it's actually beneficial to the specials as a whole. However, ironically it is perhaps the continued hunting that allows the situation to work; even after twenty years, the bears still remain wary of humans. It's possible that as the popularity of hunting falls, it might become more difficult to continue feeding the bears without causing problems.


Paul

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
oscardog
Senior Member
356 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 25
Joined Dec 2011
Location: Long Beach, Ca
     
Jan 15, 2015 21:58 |  #51

Larry Johnson wrote in post #17384353 (external link)
Now you're just making up your own reality. You have absolutely know idea how long the caged mouse was in the field or how long the kestrel hovered over it, now do you? Freed in some random unfamiliar field? With all do respect, don't make me laugh. What field could possiby be familiar to a mouse bought from a pet shop. What would you have done with the mouse.

Oh, forgot to mention, you should have seen that mouse attack and devoir an earthworm that I fed it. Poor little worm.

I'm betting the OP is just sitting back laughing at this thread that he started and has never responded to yet.


I wouldn't have bought the mouse in the first place.


Gear: 6D, 7d Mark II, Rokinon 14mm 2.8, Canon 16-35 f4 IS, Sigma 24mm 1.8, Canon 70-200 f4 (non IS), Sigma 500 4.5 DG, Kenko 1.4x & 2x converters

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Neilyb
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,200 posts
Gallery: 23 photos
Likes: 546
Joined Sep 2005
Location: Munich
     
Jan 16, 2015 02:01 |  #52

hollis_f wrote in post #17384267 (external link)
We have a pair that breed in a tree at the end of our archery field. They're quite easy to spot flying around that area.

Oh we have them flying around and I can show you a couple of nests, but they are high up. Ours must have been persecuted something rotten (Bavaria is pretty big on the whole "Waidmannsheil" thing), nothing is safe and everything has a season.


http://natureimmortal.​blogspot.com (external link)

http://www.natureimmor​tal.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Neilyb
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,200 posts
Gallery: 23 photos
Likes: 546
Joined Sep 2005
Location: Munich
Post edited over 6 years ago by Neilyb.
     
Jan 16, 2015 02:05 |  #53

myphotographic wrote in post #17384479 (external link)
* Checks all the avatars *

You must be talking about the bear to the left. It's actually situation I've been pondering and meaning to comment on in this very thread. It's taken at the Martinselkosen Wildife Centre in Finland, and is actually a baited situation. Martinselkosen a family-run concern that have now been feeding the bears since '91, doing so every day from the end of winter until the Finnish hunting season starts (when all the bears know to cross over in to the unpopulated Russian forest). While it's common for bear-human interactions to turn problematic when food is involved, at Martinselkosen that doesn't seem to be the case. It's a very very sparsely populated region of boreal forest, and it's not bringing the bears in to conflict with people. It's a situation that does not seem to be detrimental to the bears, and by providing a counter-experience to the continuing traditional Finnish past-time of shooting bears for sport, there's an argument to be made that it's actually beneficial to the specials as a whole. However, ironically it is perhaps the continued hunting that allows the situation to work; even after twenty years, the bears still remain wary of humans. It's possible that as the popularity of hunting falls, it might become more difficult to continue feeding the bears without causing problems.

I was going to bring this up, glad you did. The way the Finnish hides are run mean you are hidden before they arrive, so no association with humans and food. Unlike the North American bears the brown bears of Europe have hundreds of years of persecution behind them and simply run if they do see a human.... as I found out in Finland one morning on my way back to the road :o
I talked to a local who wanted to sit in the largest hide for a night. He had lived in the area for 40 years, collecting berries and mushrooms for 35 of those years and he had never seen a bear. He got the shock of his life that night. Without the baiting and maybe alot of patience you might see a bear if you were well hidden. I am sure Frank has one at the bottom of his garden :twisted:


http://natureimmortal.​blogspot.com (external link)

http://www.natureimmor​tal.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Canon-Chas
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
Avatar
243 posts
Gallery: 17 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 114
Joined Jan 2010
Location: Scotland
     
Jan 16, 2015 04:36 as a reply to  @ Larry Johnson's post |  #54

Good morning Larry ;-)a

Sorry for delay in replying, although I have taken the time to read the comments over the last few days.

It's interesting to read the variety of responses, obviously an emotive subject which has been discussed many times elsewhere.

Yes, some replies are amusing and off topic but it's engaging to read folks views and opinions

No doubt the replies will continue.... :-)

Thanks all for your input so far

Chas


Chas
http://www.wildfeather​s.co.uk (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Larry ­ Johnson
Goldmember
Avatar
1,356 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 464
Joined Sep 2011
Location: Virginia
     
Jan 16, 2015 08:39 |  #55

oscardog wrote in post #17384736 (external link)
I wouldn't have bought the mouse in the first place.

Maybe you should buy one, keep it in your home (had mine in my bedroom), feed it for several weeks, and later set it free somewhere nice.


_______________
Ain't Nature Grand!
Shooting 7D2 with Canon 400mm, f/5.6.
60D, canon 18-135 EFS, and 1.4 extender in the bag.
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Larry ­ Johnson
Goldmember
Avatar
1,356 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 464
Joined Sep 2011
Location: Virginia
     
Jan 16, 2015 08:45 |  #56

Canon-Chas wrote in post #17384989 (external link)
Good morning Larry ;-)a

Sorry for delay in replying, although I have taken the time to read the comments over the last few days.

It's interesting to read the variety of responses, obviously an emotive subject which has been discussed many times elsewhere.

Yes, some replies are amusing and off topic but it's engaging to read folks views and opinions

No doubt the replies will continue.... :-)

Thanks all for your input so far

Chas

Well you certainly couldn't have thought that this was going to be an emotionless discussion. Might as well be a hunting vs anti-hunting discussion.


_______________
Ain't Nature Grand!
Shooting 7D2 with Canon 400mm, f/5.6.
60D, canon 18-135 EFS, and 1.4 extender in the bag.
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
popeshawnpaul
Member
Avatar
104 posts
Likes: 11
Joined Aug 2009
Location: Bellevue, WA
Post edited over 6 years ago by popeshawnpaul.
     
Apr 16, 2015 09:25 |  #57

Does it matter if you kill that bait fish, put it on a hook, and fish with it? Does it matter if the fisherman who caught the bait-fish killed it for you, you paid him for the service and to package it up? Does that make you feel better because you had someone else do it for you? It isn't any different with photography. I would envision the non-bait people think the animal dying worry about how it "feels" when it's going to be killed and eaten? I don't see any difference and imagine if a bait fish or mouse dies at the hand of man and then is fed it still went through that "fear" if you want to call it that. We feed live mice to pet snakes. Live grasshoppers to pet lizards. I can't understand why people value the life of a mouse over that of a bait-fish. There is a group of people that think cute and furry is valued and ugly animals are ok to be killed. It doesn't matter if I am doing fishing or photography, I see no issue with baiting. Those that have moral issues should not do it. It's when you pass your moral judgment on me or others then I have a problem.

Those that think it's morally reprehensible to use live bait think it's ok if you kill it beforehand and use "dead" bait? It makes no sense. Those same people wear leather shoes and have leather seats in their car, killing an animal for something as reprehensible as esthetics? You just felt better because you paid someone to kill it. What about the raptor guys at the lodges that pay someone to kill a chicken and then put it out on a meat pole for photography? Is it ok because they paid someone to kill the animal before so now it's morally acceptable because it's the type of animal that will be baited with dead bait? None of this anti-baiting makes much logical sense.

That being said, I've never live baited on any shot I've ever done. I guess I've never had the opportunity but I don't think we should pass judgment on those that choose to use this method.


www.shawnmccully.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BlakeC
"Dad was a meat cutter"
Avatar
2,673 posts
Gallery: 372 photos
Likes: 678
Joined Jul 2014
Location: West Michigan, USA
Post edited over 6 years ago by BlakeC.
     
Apr 16, 2015 09:49 |  #58

Canon-Chas wrote in post #17379052 (external link)
staking out a live goat for a tiger

I wouldn't do this but I would definitely stake out a goat to bait a T-Rex! The goat's sacrifice would be appreciated as would the photo of the T-Rex! Sorry just excited for the new Jurassic Park!

But like some have already stated, drawing the line is going to be different for everyone. I wouldn't string up a goat for a tiger, but I would use minnows for a Bird of Prey. I also don't kill spiders, I capture and release them outside. But I kill mosquitoes and flying biting things. That's just me. And I don't have a "line" per-say. It would just depend on each individual creature I guess. And then there's the law and morals and ethics. The law is the law and is based on popular (or unpopular) opinion of the public or representatives voted in by the public which is based on each individuals beliefs in their morals and ethics. Morals & Ethics are also just a matter of opinion. It's all very...opinionated. But who is right? And who get's to decide who is right? The only constant in any of this is the law, and if you truly believe that anything is or isn't "right" then you have to fight to change the law to be more in line with your own morals and ethics. In any case, follow what you believe is "right."

Wow, kind of went off on a tangent, but at least you see how I came to that tangent. lol


Blake C
BlakeC-Photography.com (external link)
Follow Me on Facebook (external link) , Instagram (external link), or Google+ (external link)
80D |70D | SL1 - Σ 18-35 1.8 ART, Σ 50-100 1.8 ART, Σ 17-50 2.8, Canon 24 2.8 Pancake, Canon 50 1.8 STM, Canon 10-18 STM, Canon 18-135 STM

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bobthetog
Junior Member
28 posts
Likes: 60
Joined Apr 2010
     
Apr 11, 2016 23:10 |  #59

Pet store rodents are notorious for carrying salmonella. The Minnesota Department of Health and the Centers for Disease Control have published accounts of children contracting salmonella, including multidrug-resistant strains, from pet store mice, rats, and hamsters. The affected children had merely played with and sometimes kissed their little pets—as predators that consume the entire bodies of their prey, owls are even more vulnerable to swallowing pathogens. Of course, as natural predators feeding on raw meat, owls are more resistant to salmonella than we humans, but two species that are baited extremely aggressively by photographers, Great Gray and Boreal Owls, are typically most conspicuous when they are physiologically stressed, with their immune system already compromised—this is when they would be most vulnerable to disease organisms.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JPB ­ the ­ elder
Member
184 posts
Gallery: 16 photos
Likes: 34
Joined Jun 2014
Location: Marietta ,Ga
     
Apr 13, 2016 11:20 |  #60

The state of Georgia has taken all the pain out of making a decision to bait or not bait . It is illegal to bait animals for the purpose of photography according to our Department of Natural Resources . I play the outlaw card and keep my bird feeders full .




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

18,154 views & 14 likes for this thread
Live baiting using animals for photography
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Wildlife Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Mike1911
899 guests, 236 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.