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Thread started 16 Apr 2015 (Thursday) 12:11
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70D question

 
Rick ­ in ­ Ontario
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Apr 16, 2015 12:11 |  #1

I currently have a T4i and am quite happy with it.

I have been thinking about the 70D lately, one big reason is it has a larger viewfinder. There a couple of other features on the 70D that I think could be useful.

I'm not expecting an improvement in image quality over the T4i but it seems to me I have read that the ISO noise is better, or easier to deal with in PP than the T4i. I shoot RAW. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this.

Also, if anyone has other comments I would certainly be interested in hearing them.

Thanks
Rick




  
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MalVeauX
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Post edited over 5 years ago by MalVeauX. (2 edits in all)
     
Apr 16, 2015 12:17 |  #2

Rick in Ontario wrote in post #17519909 (external link)
I currently have a T4i and am quite happy with it.

I have been thinking about the 70D lately, one big reason is it has a larger viewfinder. There a couple of other features on the 70D that I think could be useful.

I'm not expecting an improvement in image quality over the T4i but it seems to me I have read that the ISO noise is better, or easier to deal with in PP than the T4i. I shoot RAW. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this.

Also, if anyone has other comments I would certainly be interested in hearing them.

Thanks
Rick

Heya,

Less than 1 stop difference in ISO. Not a big difference, very minor. Features that ARE different enough to matter: MFA (if you care, and shoot fast lenses and/or telephoto), Video capabilities (again, if you care, not everyone does video with SLR), and the AF performance and crosstype points (19 vs 9). If you really care about the viewfinder coverage, being 100% instead of 95%, I assume you might be someone who prefers manual lenses possibly? If so, you'd want a camera that can take a different focus screen, like super matte precision? The question is if you think these kinds of things are worth paying double the price for? Because at the 1k price mark, you could look into a 5D Mark II, which sounds more like something you're looking for feature wise, based on just what you've described.

Very best,


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Rick ­ in ­ Ontario
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Apr 16, 2015 13:45 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #3

Hi Martin;

Thanks for the reply.

MFA, yes that is certainly of interest. I just acquired the Tamron 150-600 so am just starting to shoot long lens.

AF performance and the 19 crosstype points are also definitely of interest.

On the viewfinder, not so much the 95% vs 100% but the physical size of the viewfinder seemed larger, and possibly brighter on the 70D, I could be mistaken on this.

No, I haven't done much manual focusing yet, and at present am not thinking about different focus screens.

Other than high ISO, that pretty much points to the 70d, doesn't it?

I saw you comment in another thread about learning to use the T4i (and probably the 70D?) at higher ISOs. I did a couple of Google searches and didn't find much I thought was useful. Do you have any recommended sites or information that might be of help?

Thanks
Rick




  
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Hermelin
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Apr 17, 2015 03:53 |  #4

The biggest noticeable improvement will be the OVF AF and the LIVE VIEW AF


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MakisM1
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Apr 17, 2015 07:47 |  #5

Rick in Ontario wrote in post #17520057 (external link)
Hi Martin;

....
Other than high ISO, that pretty much points to the 70d, doesn't it?

I saw you comment in another thread about learning to use the T4i (and probably the 70D?) at higher ISOs. I did a couple of Google searches and didn't find much I thought was useful. Do you have any recommended sites or information that might be of help?

Thanks
Rick

I shoot quite a bit in high ISO (mainly choral performances in a theater). Very seldom I have a need for real high ISO (shot at ISO 20000 at f7.1 to have a deep enough DOF for a group photo).

I've found that ISO6400 is most of the time adequate, ISO12800 in extremis. MY experience (60D, 5DIII but I have played also with RAW photos from the 70D and 6D) tells me that you can perform reasonable NR up to the highest native ISO (ISO 6400 for T4i, 60D and ISO 12800 for the 70D).

Here is a photo from last Saturday from the 60D at ISO 5000:


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....and a 100% crop to see the results of NR (there is always a little noise, because I always try to maximize detail retention)

[ATTACH]B[/ATTACH]

Gerry
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Apr 17, 2015 07:48 |  #6

For some reason, I don't get 2 photo uploads per post...



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EDIT:

I finally found TeamSpeed's thread on shooting with high ISO and a 7D. This thread got me past ISO400 :-D. The ETTR principle described is still a good method for shooting/PP high ISO

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1079217

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Apr 17, 2015 08:17 |  #7

The ISO is SLIGHTLY better but once you shoot with one and start utilizing all of the little "extras" you'll love it! It's hard to explain. Just borrow or rent one for a day and you'll see what I mean.

I LOVE the AF system, the ability to AFMA, and the ability to have a custom mode. The OVF is also amazing! Some things won't make a difference until you use them and wonder how you got by without them.


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Rick ­ in ­ Ontario
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Apr 17, 2015 11:02 as a reply to  @ BlakeC's post |  #8

Thanks for all the info guys!!




  
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Apr 19, 2015 16:07 |  #9

It is interesting to note that there are people who say that they would never buy an F/4 lens because they need that extra of f/2.8 for low light situations, and there are some that say the one stop of ISO is minor. To me the increase of ISO, even though only 2/3 of a stop is significant.

A newer sensor with better noise handling is also a plus of the 70D.

Since my experience with a few lenses requiring the AF micro adjustment I will never buy a camera at does not have it.

Excellent AF system, maybe not as great as that of the 7D or 5DIIi, but close to it.

I do not think that the T4i has a rear dial or not, I am not sure. But if not - it is another feature that I do not want to do without.

In other words - it is a better camera than what the OP has. The question is if he/she has the budget for it, and since I do not know what his/her lenses are, it may be a better idea to upgrade the lenses first.




  
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Rick ­ in ­ Ontario
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Apr 19, 2015 17:42 as a reply to  @ Lbsimon's post |  #10

To answer the lens question, I have Canon 18-135 STM, Canon 70-300 USM (non L), Canon 40mm STM, Canon 100mm 2.8 L and Tamron 150-600. I also have a set of Aperture extensoin tubes and a 430EXII flash.

I am a real rookie, although I am happy with many of my images. I tend to shoot family stuff, wildlife (birds and whatever else I can find around home, several trips to South Africa, Kruger was awesome, but these are not likely to happen again) and macro, mostly flowers.

I was always fighting for reach, hence the Tamron, which I bought used about 3 weeks ago. I really like it so far, although I have discovered what it means when everyone says it needs light.

I have also struggled with noise but mostly with very young kids and not wanting to use a flash and scare them. For the most part I have had good luck in at least reducing the noise in Lightroom, but less noise or better quality is also a consideration.

I have also read that the 70D noise is easier to deal with in post, I don't know how true that is, though. I do know I have a lot to learn about dealing with noise, both when taking an image and in post.

Things about the 70D that interest me over the T4i are the larger (physical size) viewfinder, possible better auto-focus (although the T4i is not too bad at all) and more auto-focus points (I haven't used 19 points so I don't know how beneficial that really is).

The T4i does not have a rear dial.

I shoot manual as much as possible, often switching to Av. I have been using Auto ISO but am weaning myself off of that.

I am concerned about weight, so full frame is down on the list but not completely out of the question in the long run.

Above all this is a(nother) hobby. I am not and never will be a professional.

Thanks again for all the comments and assistance.

Rick




  
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Apr 19, 2015 22:07 as a reply to  @ Rick in Ontario's post |  #11

The 70D is still not 100%, I think it is 98% or something like that. The biggest and brightest viewfinder in a Canon crop is the 7D/7D2 with 100% and a larger size again.

The 70D is a great camera. It ergonomically better than the rebels and has a lot of other little tweaks that make it is faster to use and easier to change between settings.


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crbinson
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Apr 20, 2015 19:36 |  #12

If you are happy with the T4i you won't be disappointed with the 70D. I did this upgrade and never regretted it. Just a matter of if the $$ is worth it to you. For me the improvements were; A/F, more direct access controls (buttons), WiFi, Dual Pixel LV, larger OVF. MFA is a bonus but have not used it.


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Apr 20, 2015 20:40 |  #13

Rick in Ontario wrote in post #17524132 (external link)
To answer the lens question, I have Canon 18-135 STM, Canon 70-300 USM (non L), Canon 40mm STM, Canon 100mm 2.8 L and Tamron 150-600. I also have a set of Aperture extensoin tubes and a 430EXII flash.

I am a real rookie, although I am happy with many of my images. I tend to shoot family stuff, wildlife (birds and whatever else I can find around home, several trips to South Africa, Kruger was awesome, but these are not likely to happen again) and macro, mostly flowers.

I was always fighting for reach, hence the Tamron, which I bought used about 3 weeks ago. I really like it so far, although I have discovered what it means when everyone says it needs light.

I have also struggled with noise but mostly with very young kids and not wanting to use a flash and scare them. For the most part I have had good luck in at least reducing the noise in Lightroom, but less noise or better quality is also a consideration.

I have also read that the 70D noise is easier to deal with in post, I don't know how true that is, though. I do know I have a lot to learn about dealing with noise, both when taking an image and in post.

Things about the 70D that interest me over the T4i are the larger (physical size) viewfinder, possible better auto-focus (although the T4i is not too bad at all) and more auto-focus points (I haven't used 19 points so I don't know how beneficial that really is).

The T4i does not have a rear dial.

I shoot manual as much as possible, often switching to Av. I have been using Auto ISO but am weaning myself off of that.

I am concerned about weight, so full frame is down on the list but not completely out of the question in the long run.

Above all this is a(nother) hobby. I am not and never will be a professional.

Thanks again for all the comments and assistance.

Rick

Heya,

Bounced flash will solve all your issues and give you better exposures than using maximum ISO in a tungsten lit dark house.

The ISO differences are so minimal between the T4i and 70D that I would not consider it a factor at this point based on how you've described things. You're way better off with flash. Direct flash is annoying. But bounced flash is fine. You can do that around kids, all day, and they don't care, because all you're doing is hitting a wall or ceilling with flash and making it your light source, so it's soft and it doesn't make you shut your eyes fast as a reaction the way direct flash to the face does. Use ETTL bounced flash and you'll be in in-door-kid-snapping heaven with great exposures over and over, without any ISO at all (well, I would use some ISO to reduce the power needs on flash to get faster cycles and more shots per battery).

Otherwise, indoors using high ISO for kids and natural light, a very fast prime and proper use of ETTR and high ISO will work. I do this too. It's not nearly as easy because really the camera will hunt focus in really dark light, which is why I use manual focus anyways to make this a non issue for me. But if you're trying to use AF indoors, a fast prime (F1.4, F2) and high ISO (6400, 12800) can pull it off. Just manually expose to the right (ETTR) to over expose by about 1 stop to 1 & a third stop, to make the noise processing a better experience.

Here's the same sensor as your T4i (which I also have) and EOS-M (also have that), so they do the same noise and IQ, I use my EOS-M indoors all the time for my kid.

I too love to just snap shots of my kid around the house, nothing to hang on walls, but just for fun and for memories, kind of what you're probably doing here based on how you described things. But it's a lot nicer having decent exposures of those little moments that are not planned, rather than a blurry, noisy mess, that normally someone's cellphone camera is used for.

Two examples, two bounced flash and two high ISO exposures to give you an idea of the difference and ISO capabilities of your T4i's sensor:

High ISO (6400 & 12800, indoors, very little light, manual exposure and always exposing by 1 and a third stop over for noise handling):

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8572/16445712361_7794a7d4b3_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/r4fz​jR  (external link) IMG_7076 (external link) by Mwise1023 (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7456/15827447143_3520fcbc78_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/q7BN​BH  (external link) IMG_7103 (external link) by Mwise1023 (external link), on Flickr

Low ISO, but using bounced flash (I just bounce it off the ceiling) & ETTL instead, indoors:

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3867/14965198729_818feea62f_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/oNqy​cK  (external link) IMG_5220_marked (external link) by Mwise1023 (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8684/16712907868_fcdf3e9639_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/rsS2​eW  (external link) IMG_2973 (external link) by Mwise1023 (external link), on Flickr

It's just good to be able to do both so that you can figure out what you wanna do. If the flash is there and ready to go, I would always bounce flash. If you're just not near the flash but have the camera, quickly dial in for high ISO exposure and you'll at least have images that cell's, P&S's, etc, cannot fathom pulling off.

Very best,

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amfoto1
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Apr 21, 2015 10:46 |  #14

All the Rebel/xxxD/xxxxD series cameras use a "penta-mirror" instead of a true pentaprism. This is to reduce cost, size and weight.

All the xxD and xD models use a true pentaprism, which makes them a bit brighter.

7D-series and 70D use a transmissive LCD focus screen that partially offsets the brighter VF (darkens noticeably when not powered on).

Your T4i has a 95%, 0.85X magnification viewfinder.

70D's is 98%, 0.95X. And, for comparison, 7D/7DII's are 100%, 1.0X (probably one of the main reasons the 7D-series are about the same size and weight as a full frame 5D-series camera).

Your T4i has 9-point AF system with all nine cross type (center point enhanced), f5.6. It has All Points/Auto Selection and Single Point/Manual Selection AF patterns.

70D has 19-point AF system with all cross type (center point enhanced), f5.6. It has All Points, Single Point, and Zone AF patterns.

7D has 19-point AF, all cross type (center point enhanced), f5.6. It has All Points, Single Point, Zone, Expansion Points, and Spot Focus patterns.

7D II has 65-point AF, all cross type (center point enhanced), f8, with All Points, Single Point, Small Zone, Large Zone, 4-Point Expansion, 8-Point Expansion, and Spot Focus patterns.

T4i doesn't have Micro Focus Adjust. 7D has 20-lens MFA. 70D and 7DII have 40-lens MFA. Latter two cameras also have dual adjustment with zooms (20-lens version is only one adjustment per lens, regardless).

There are various AF performance tweaks that are user adjustable with 70D and 7D-series cameras. A lot of these pertain to AI Servo focus for action/sports.

Your T4i uses a Digic 5 processor. 70D uses a Digic 5+. For comparison, to support high frame rates 7D uses dual Digic 4 and 7D II uses dual Digic 6. The 7D-series also use a discrete chip to run their AF systems (same as 1D-series cameras). Your T4i and the 70D use a single processor for both AF and to handle images.

70D can shoot up to 7 frames per second. 7D, up to 8 fps. 7DII, up to 10 fps. Your T4i can shoot at 5 fps.

Your T4i is rated for up to 30 JPGs or 6 RAW files in a burst (after which, the camera has to pause to clear the buffer). 70D is rated for 65 JPGs, 16 RAWs. For comparison, 7D is rated to 130 JPGs, 25 RAWs (firmware 2.x) and 7DII 1000+ JPGs, 31 RAWs. All these ratings are the respective camera's peak performance, based on the fastest capacity memory cards the camera can fully utilize.

70D has articulated LCD screen, same as your T4i. 7D/7DII do not.

T4i shutter has 1/4000 top speed, 1/200 flash sync. 70D and 7D-series have 1/8000 top, 1/250 sync.

Canon doesn't publicize shutter durability ratings for all cameras, but basically it's safe to assume Rebel series are 75,000, xxD series are typically 100,000. 7D is 150,000 and 7DII is 250,000.

All in all, there are quite a few differences to consider, even if image quality and high ISO performance aren't all that different.

EDIT: Regarding flash... I don't know why people are afraid to use it. After a pop or two, kids and adults tend to ignore it. Most animals completely ignore it, so long as you aren't too close. IN fact the noise of the flash (the "pop" as it fires and whine as it recycles) often seems to bother animals more than the brief, bright flash of light.

Watch an experienced event shooter at work. They typically don't use bounced flash. They mostly use direct flash, sometimes with some sort of diffuser or modifier.

Bounced flash introduces too many variables and seriously reduces the power of the flash. Often the bounce surface isn't an ideal color and will add ugly color casts to images. When bounced, the light has to travel a lot farther and some of it is absorbed by the bounce surface, wasting a lot of the flash's power, forcing the flash fire more fully and in turn causing slower flash recycling, more rapid battery drain.

It is much more controllable and reliable using direct flash.

But the flash built into many DSLRs pretty much sucks. It's underpowered, drains the camera's battery rapidly... and being close above the lens it's in the worst possible place for redeye and ugly shadow effects.

Much better is an accessory flash. Even the smallest are more powerful than the built-in and they have their own separate power source(s). Put it on flash bracket off to the side and higher up, attached to the camera by an off-camera shoe cord, and that will help eliminate a lot of redeye and shadow problems. But in most cases because it's taller than the built-in, an accessory flash mounted even directly in the hot shoe is an improvement over the built-in flash.

Canon ETTL/ETTL II flash control can be very simple and easy to use, too. Just remember that in any of the camera's auto exposure modes (Tv, Av, P) you'll get FILL FLASH. In these exposure modes, the camera still exposes for ambient light, and the flash is fired at a reduced output, about -1.33 or -1.66 stops.

To use FULL FLASH, set the camera to M. So long as the flash is set to ETTL or ETTL II, you actually still get auto exposure, but with the camera set to M it will be based upon the flash alone, the camera will largely ignore ambient light. You can change ISO, shutter speed and aperture to increase or decrease how much ambient light is recorded along with the flash.

Many Canon flashes also can be used manually... And most have + or - Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) that works a lot like Exposure Compensation (EC) on the camera itself. This allows you to fine tune the flash exposure. Many Canon flash/camera combos also offer Flash Exposure Lock (FEL), which is similar to using AE Lock (AEL) on the camera itself.

When using FULL flash, it essentially "becomes the shutter". You can use any shutter speed at or slower than the flash sync speed (you just have to watch out for how much ambient light it will allow to be recorded in the image). The flash itself fires at the equivalent of about 1/720, so will act to freeze action in most cases. The ISO and aperture control the distance the flash is able to reach (and many Canon flashes show you the flash range at the settings you've selected, right on an LCD screen on the back of the flash... if not sure the distance, focusing your lens on the subject can act as a "rangefinder" of sorts, so long as the lens has a distance/depth of field scale).

When using FILL flash, you do have to be a little cautious with moving subjects. Too slow a shutter speed can produce "ghosts" because you are recording both ambient and flash light together. This can sometimes be used to good effect, though, to show movement... But you might want to use Second Curtain Sync, or it can look odd.

Camera flash sync ratings aren't entirely the limit of possible shutter speeds, either. Many Canon flashes and flashes for Canon provide High Speed Sync (HSS), where the flash adjusts itself to work with shutter speeds above the camera's rated flash sync speed. This does reduce the distance the flash can reach, though... A lot at higher shutter speeds. HSS and 2nd Curtain Sync can't be used at the same time, either. (But there is little reason to use 2nd Curtain Sync with faster shutter speeds, anyway... It's mostly needed with slower shutter speeds.)

I highly recommend experimenting with flash... Especially with a reasonably good and more powerful accessory flash, ideally mounted on a flash bracket and attached with an off-camera shoe cord, so that it can preferably be used directly, not bounced.


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Rick ­ in ­ Ontario
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Apr 21, 2015 15:54 as a reply to  @ amfoto1's post |  #15

Martin, Alan;

Wow, lots of awesome information. I am very thankful for both of your great replies!

I will try both of your methods and I am sure my results will improve.

Martin, you are exactly correct in what I like to do at family gatherings, take good pictures of the kids as they are and doing what they are doing.

Again, thank you both for taking the time to try and help me.

Rick




  
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