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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
Mornnb
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Jun 03, 2015 02:01 |  #1231

David Arbogast wrote in post #17553438 (external link)
If you need to make a 5 or 6 stop push, yes it will be crap compared to D750. But, that's a really extreme push. Unfortunately in this world we live in there exists no perfect solution. Pick your poison. What is your priority? Best glass or best sensor. You don't get to have both.


I am using my Leica for landscape work these days, it's glass is the best. And the sensor is so much better than the 5D3 for dynamic range and shadow recovery. 13.3EV compared to 14.1 EV for the A7R and 11.7 EV for the 5D Mark III.
And no lossly raw files. So that's close to a perfect solution, except for the lack of a TS-E lens and the price.


Canon 5D Mark III - Leica M240
EF 16-35mm F/4 IS L - EF 14mm f/2.8 L II - - EF 17mm TS-E L - EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II - EF 70-200mm IS II f/2.8 L - Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art - Sigma 85mm f/1.4 EX
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David ­ Arbogast
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Jun 03, 2015 10:08 |  #1232

Mornnb wrote in post #17582060 (external link)
I am using my Leica for landscape work these days, it's glass is the best. And the sensor is so much better than the 5D3 for dynamic range and shadow recovery. 13.3EV compared to 14.1 EV for the A7R and 11.7 EV for the 5D Mark III.
And no lossly raw files. So that's close to a perfect solution, except for the lack of a TS-E lens and the price.

That's terrific! It's great to find something that is a great fit like that.

Likewise, I think I've got my ideal landscape kit now. Lately I added the 11-24mm to my kit and it is amazing on the a7R. I gives me the sense that I am getting all 36MP worth from that sensor. It is so sharp it disgraces my TS-E 17mm, which is itself a pretty terrific lens. I would love to see the lens on a 50MP sensor, but I may just wait and see what Sony puts out. I don't know - I am really on the fence about the 5DS R.

The great thing about your kit is not only the quality of the parts, but it's got to be relatively lightweight and small compared to a FF DSLR. The a7R is tiny and light, but when I add the 11-24mm plus adapter it gets pretty heavy.

If I had the budget for a Leica landscape kit, I would probably become too tempted to step up to medium format - maybe a Pentax 645Z. That looks like an amazing camera, but I'm not sure if the lenses are up to it.


David | Flickr (external link)
Sony α7R II | CV 12mm, FE 12-24mm, Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm, Sigma 35mm F/1.2, Loxia 85mm, Batis 85mm, Batis 135mm

  
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thenextguy
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Pekka with reason 'added an embedded video'.
     
Jun 03, 2015 15:09 |  #1233

Tony Northrup just did a landscape test comparing the 5DS-R to the 5D3 and the Nikon D810.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=Gq3ISUHsfsQ (external link)


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Canon 5Ds R | 24-70L f/2.8 II | 35 F2 IS | 50mm f/1.4 | 70-200L f/2.8 II

  
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jonneymendoza
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Jun 03, 2015 15:18 |  #1234

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=Gq3ISUHsfsQ (external link)


Canon 5dmkIII | Canon 85L 1.2 | Sigma 35mm ART 1.4|Canon 16-35mm L 2.8 |Canon 24-70mm L f2.8 | Canon 70-200mm F2.8L MK2 | Canon 430EX MK2 Flickr (external link)

  
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Windsun33
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Jun 03, 2015 15:24 |  #1235

Since the camera is actually (almost) out now, perhaps time to close this and start a new thread when they start shipping production models?


Canon EOS 6D EOS 70D | Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM | Canon Macro Twin Lite MT-24EX Speedlite 600EX-RT

  
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wallstreetoneil
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Jun 03, 2015 16:09 |  #1236

Tony's comments about Noise Reduction being used in combination with the huge number of pixels to gain back detail in the shadows is really an astute observation - and just about made it 'equivalent' to the DR of the Nikon 810 which is very good news. I'm really looking forward to getting my 5DSr for this reason alone to see what it can do.


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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thenextguy
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Post edited over 4 years ago by thenextguy.
     
Jun 03, 2015 16:34 |  #1237

wallstreetoneil wrote in post #17582876 (external link)
Tony's comments about Noise Reduction being used in combination with the huge number of pixels to gain back detail in the shadows is really an astute observation - and just about made it 'equivalent' to the DR of the Nikon 810 which is very good news. I'm really looking forward to getting my 5DSr for this reason alone to see what it can do.

I was kind of wondering what others would think about that. That was the most interesting part of the video. It sure looked like he was right based on the comparisons, but something about it just seemed off. Maybe just because it was the first time I've ever seen someone point that out. I wonder how this comparison would work if there was color in the shadows. Would it still work?

Also, what happens to the rest of the image when you apply noise reduction to clean up the shadows? Would it ruin detail in the rest of the image? I'm gonn have to try this later on today.

Edit: Also, when he was doing that comparison, didn't he resize the 5DS-R image to 36 mp? Shouldn't the amount of detail be the same?


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Canon 5Ds R | 24-70L f/2.8 II | 35 F2 IS | 50mm f/1.4 | 70-200L f/2.8 II

  
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wallstreetoneil
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Jun 03, 2015 17:19 |  #1238

thenextguy wrote in post #17582925 (external link)
I was kind of wondering what others would think about that. That was the most interesting part of the video. It sure looked like he was right based on the comparisons, but something about it just seemed off. Maybe just because it was the first time I've ever seen someone point that out. I wonder how this comparison would work if there was color in the shadows. Would it still work?

Also, what happens to the rest of the image when you apply noise reduction to clean up the shadows? Would it ruin detail in the rest of the image? I'm gonn have to try this later on today.

Edit: Also, when he was doing that comparison, didn't he resize the 5DS-R image to 36 mp? Shouldn't the amount of detail be the same?

I believe he answers this question if you read the Youtube quotes - sounds like he did the NR and then resized it.

I have played a lot with NR / Masking because it seems I am almost always at the limit / trade off point because I shoot indoor ice hockey, dark weddings and recently small dark fast moving birds. I think Tony is really onto something here that in some ways it is a backdoor technique to trade-off some 50 megapixel resolution to get 810 type resolution and yet use the much better / random noise from the better 50 megapixel sensor to use NR so simulate increased DR from the shadows.


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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thenextguy
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Jun 03, 2015 18:01 |  #1239

One other comment he made that I did like was how he mentioned you have to consider the glass available for a camera system and not just the sensor.

I have a feeling that the 5Ds/R will produce even more detail than most medium format systems because of Canon's lens advantage.


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wallstreetoneil
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Jun 03, 2015 19:55 |  #1240

Just downloaded the files that Tony N posted in his video - truly awesome detail in all the dark areas under the house and it is amazing the detail you can pull out from so far away.

Glad I ordered the R - this camera is going to be well appreciated by those that want the detail


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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thenextguy
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Jun 03, 2015 20:09 |  #1241

I think it's going to be an awesome camera, but I'm still not sold on Northrup's notion that you can use noise reduction to expand the dynamic range. You're going to lose detail in the whole image with noise reduction. I suppose you could mask the shadows and apply noise reduction only there, but that's a serious pain in the ass.


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wallstreetoneil
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Jun 03, 2015 20:30 |  #1242

thenextguy wrote in post #17583172 (external link)
I think it's going to be an awesome camera, but I'm still not sold on Northrup's notion that you can use noise reduction to expand the dynamic range. You're going to lose detail in the whole image with noise reduction. I suppose you could mask the shadows and apply noise reduction only there, but that's a serious pain in the ass.

In LR if you select a Brush or Filter you can apply local Noise reduction.


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
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David ­ Arbogast
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Post edited over 4 years ago by David Arbogast.
     
Jun 03, 2015 21:41 |  #1243

My 11-24mm is blowing me away mounted on my a7R...can't wait to see the detail it can resolve on a 50MP sensor. :)

I am just not sure which 50MP camera to buy: the 5DS R or whatever Sony inevitably releases. It's not entirely cut and dry for me. No doubt the Sony will considerably best the DR of the 5DS R, but there other factors too. Hard choices. For now the 5DS R remains on pre-order. Tony's video provides a measure of comfort that the 5DS R might just be OK. ;)


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sploo
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Post edited over 4 years ago by sploo.
     
Jun 04, 2015 04:07 |  #1244

thenextguy wrote in post #17583172 (external link)
I think it's going to be an awesome camera, but I'm still not sold on Northrup's notion that you can use noise reduction to expand the dynamic range. You're going to lose detail in the whole image with noise reduction. I suppose you could mask the shadows and apply noise reduction only there, but that's a serious pain in the ass.

In Photoshop it's pretty easy to use the luminance info of an image (with some suitable curves tweaks and softening) to create a mask in order to then only apply noise reduction on the darker areas. With an action set up it's something you could do with a single click. I'm not sure if there's a way to do that in Lightroom though.

David Arbogast wrote in post #17583277 (external link)
My 11-24mm is blowing me away mounted on my a7R...can't wait to see the detail it can resolve on a 50MP sensor. :)

I am just not sure which 50MP camera to buy: the 5DS R or whatever Sony inevitably releases. It's not entirely cut and dry for me. No doubt the Sony will considerably best the DR of the 5DS R, but there other factors too. Hard choices. For now the 5DS R remains on pre-order. Tony's video provides a measure of comfort that the 5DS R might just be OK. ;)

I guess you'd have to do some side-by-side testing, but it would be interesting to see at what maximum size of print (and viewing distance) a 5DS R shot + suitable noise reduction would be indistinguishable from a D810/a7R shot; where both were taken with good/identical glass AND the image was DR limited.

The point I'm making is that a D810 user (who pushes the limits of DR often) probably wouldn't jump ship, but would the 5DS models be "good enough" for a Canon glass owner to not need a Sony sensor.

Oh, and, yes, we get it - you have an 11-24. I'm jealous, ok? ;-)a


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David ­ Arbogast
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Jun 04, 2015 06:20 |  #1245

sploo wrote in post #17583549 (external link)
In Photoshop it's pretty easy to use the luminance info of an image (with some suitable curves tweaks and softening) to create a mask in order to then only apply noise reduction on the darker areas. With an action set up it's something you could do with a single click. I'm not sure if there's a way to do that in Lightroom though.

I guess you'd have to do some side-by-side testing, but it would be interesting to see at what maximum size of print (and viewing distance) a 5DS R shot + suitable noise reduction would be indistinguishable from a D810/a7R shot; where both were taken with good/identical glass AND the image was DR limited.

The point I'm making is that a D810 user (who pushes the limits of DR often) probably wouldn't jump ship, but would the 5DS models be "good enough" for a Canon glass owner to not need a Sony sensor.

Oh, and, yes, we get it - you have an 11-24. I'm jealous, ok? ;-)a

My apologies about the new-gear euphoria...not looking to provoke any jealousy. My reason for referencing that lens was because it seems to be crying out for a higher resolution sensor.

I had a D810 with a 14-24mm late last year - thought it might be my landscape setup - but elected to stick with the Sony platform with Canon-mount lenses.

Sploo, what would you do in my scenario? Go ahead and get the 5DS R? Or wait and see what Sony releases. I already have the almost-as-good-as-D810 a7R, so the 5DS R would be a complementary addition, not a replacement. I am looking for any advice I can get. :)


David | Flickr (external link)
Sony α7R II | CV 12mm, FE 12-24mm, Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm, Sigma 35mm F/1.2, Loxia 85mm, Batis 85mm, Batis 135mm

  
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced
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