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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 11 Jun 2015 (Thursday) 11:29
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Legitimately Torn Between APS-C and Full Frame Options

 
ksbal
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Jun 15, 2015 13:59 |  #31

The 6D will be better and less grain at higher iso.. but... speaking practically - you can correctly expose images at 10,200 and 16,000 iso with the 7D2 and still have a picture. Not a picture you want to blow up to 20x30 but still have one for 4x6 just fine to go in that dance or sport album. I have a 5D2 (like 6D AF) and a 7D2 and between the two, I'd keep the 7D2 if I had to sell one. the AF is so much better, and the difference in IQ while there, is not as great as the crop vs full frame once was.

I don't think either is a wrong choice, just there are trade-offs and adjustments to whichever one you choose.


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Jun 15, 2015 14:47 as a reply to  @ ksbal's post |  #32

A usable shot at 10,200 and 16,000 ISO is pretty fantastic.

Always trade-offs, especially on a budget.

Thanks for the input. Since my IQ limitations bother me more than my AF limitations on the T4i, I still think 6D is right choice for me....until its AF limitations begin to bother me!


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Jun 15, 2015 15:58 |  #33

I don't think you will have AF worries once you have used a 6d ...The internet is full of posts about AF performance not being so good but in actual use it is very good for all but the most demanding situations.... I have no probs at all with mine and I am extremely happy with my 6d....
Let's face it, if you wanted fantastic AF,super fast frames per sec you'd buy a 1DX....


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bobbyz
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Jun 15, 2015 19:02 |  #34

don1163 wrote in post #17598101 (external link)
I don't think you will have AF worries once you have used a 6d ...The internet is full of posts about AF performance not being so good but in actual use it is very good for all but the most demanding situations.... I have no probs at all with mine and I am extremely happy with my 6d....
Let's face it, if you wanted fantastic AF,super fast frames per sec you'd buy a 1DX....

So you have no issues using outer AF points at f1.2/f1.4/f2? Just search threads and lot of 6d folks would say I focus recompose. And I am not even talking AI servo mode. Everyone raves about center point which is really good, I will say that. But other points are just like old 5dmk2/5dc IMHO.


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Jun 15, 2015 23:13 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #35

I go through periods where I use the outer points (not al servo) on my t4i, and I do know firsthand how a slight mistep in a recompose can kill a shot at really fast apertures (even on a crop, let alone a FF), but I primarily use the centerpoint and have gotten used to the focus and recompose. I guess it's one of those where you don't miss what you don't really know.

On a different note, I have a lead on a slightly used 6D with 10k clicks for $899. Good deal or am I better off waiting to see if price drops a little on a new one? Looks like a good deal to me though.


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Jun 15, 2015 23:15 as a reply to  @ don1163's post |  #36

That's my feeling. I'm not a pro and this isn't my living. If I miss a shot, It's not the end of the world. What is more difficult to live with is being shut out of entire shooting opportunities because my crop sensor can't handle the lighting.


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bobbyz
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Jun 15, 2015 23:49 as a reply to  @ spooky action's post |  #37

If you routinely shooting f1.4/f2 at ISO6400 then definitely get 6d. Overall I liked the camera and it is great buy for the money but I think Nikon and Sony are getting better with their offerings than Canon.


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Jun 16, 2015 00:24 |  #38

spooky action wrote in post #17598593 (external link)
That's my feeling. I'm not a pro and this isn't my living. If I miss a shot, It's not the end of the world. What is more difficult to live with is being shut out of entire shooting opportunities because my crop sensor can't handle the lighting.

Entire shooting opportunities? I think you are being too dramatic.

Are you worried about the noise handling abilities of a crop frame camera? You can fix that by setting the ISO a stop lower. Then noise will be about equal to the noise of a FF of similar technology. Then open the lens up one stop. That gives equivalent DOF. The shutter speed will be the same. If you are doing this with focal lengths that give equivalent angles of view for the two formats, then the crop and FF will give practically indistinguishable results.

Now if you try to do this and find you can't open up a stop because the lens is already wide open, or you can't lower the ISO any more, then you are up against a limitation of the crop format. In such cases you might need a full frame. FF cameras have more specialty lenses available to them such as tilt-shift, super-fast, and some macro lenses.

But in most shooting situations we don't have these special requirements.


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werds
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Jun 16, 2015 07:05 |  #39

Archibald wrote in post #17598655 (external link)
If you are doing this with focal lengths that give equivalent angles of view for the two formats, then the crop and FF will give practically indistinguishable results.

Now if you try to do this and find you can't open up a stop because the lens is already wide open, or you can't lower the ISO any more, then you are up against a limitation of the crop format. In such cases you might need a full frame.


Nailed it right there! OP - I agree that in your situation moving up to full frame will be the only thing that satisfies you lest in a year or two you start plotting how to sell off your 6D to move up to the next best thing. I had a similar issue myself where I went from my wifes T5i to a 70D and then within the year started noticing limitations to crop, I had a toddler and a 4 year old at the time (now 2 and 5 respectively). The 70D was wonderful for the sports etc, was fairly decent in low light but was maddeningly annoying at times with low light AF and with dance recitals the results were good, but not great (from my desired result anyways). As is stated above with the right settings and situations a crop sensor shot is indistinguishable from full frame most of the time in terms of IQ as long as you have good glass.

In the end, for me anyways, I ended up going with a D750 because I had no EF lenses, only ef-s. The 6D looked tempting but having moved from the basic AF of T5i to the more advanced Af on the 70D I couldn't find it comfortable to go backwards in that aspect...(hence why due to price point I went with the D750 because it provided full frame, great features and had a more advanced AF system than the 6D. I am definitely quite happy with my full frame results and I think you will be too!


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Jun 16, 2015 08:00 as a reply to  @ werds's post |  #40

Been using a 6D pretty much since it came out, and I can count on one hand the number of times I wished the AF was better. I even manage the occasional birds-in-flight using 6D and 70-300 non-L (not exactly the quickest focussing lens...) with around 67% hit rate. It performed remarkably well during F1 at Silverstone, although granted that was a little more panning across than far to near.

Re AF accuracy: I have 85/1.8 on the camera about 90% of the time, and I only ever use it at f/1.8 or maybe f/2. Accuracy is spot on.


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Jun 16, 2015 09:52 as a reply to  @ Archibald's post |  #41

Was I being hyperbolic? Yes. I have a some fast glass - a 50 1.4, the Sigma 18-35 1.8, the 40 pancake (2.8). But I don't always want to shoot wide open or with a thin depth of field. If I want to get both kids in focus in my house where lighting is almost never good (especially at night when I'm home after work), then I really have no option but to raise the ISO (my kids don't stay still for a slow shutter speed). Those shots are usable most of the time for personal use, but the quality leaves some to be desired because of the noise. And it becomes more irksome when I want to print them. So that is one example of being shut out of entire shooting opportunities - while that may be hyperbolic, if it dissuades me from taking out the camera under similar circumstances, then for intents and purposes it is the same thing.


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Jun 16, 2015 10:08 |  #42

spooky action wrote in post #17599032 (external link)
Was I being hyperbolic? Yes. I have a some fast glass - a 50 1.4, the Sigma 18-35 1.8, the 40 pancake (2.8). But I don't always want to shoot wide open or with a thin depth of field. If I want to get both kids in focus in my house where lighting is almost never good (especially at night when I'm home after work), then I really have no option but to raise the ISO (my kids don't stay still for a slow shutter speed). Those shots are usable most of the time for personal use, but the quality leaves some to be desired because of the noise. And it becomes more irksome when I want to print them. So that is one example of being shut out of entire shooting opportunities - while that may be hyperbolic, if it dissuades me from taking out the camera under similar circumstances, then for intents and purposes it is the same thing.

I'm sure you're aware that FF gives thinner DOF.

However, from what you said, it's clear that you need a 6D! :-)

And, just a suggestion - use bounce flash when shooting the kids at home.


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Jun 16, 2015 10:08 as a reply to  @ spooky action's post |  #43

So let's say you stop your 50mm down to f4 because you need more in focus. On a full frame, you'll have to stop down to around f6.3 to achieve the same DOF (because you will have to either get closer to your subject, or shoot an 85mm lens to achieve a similar FOV). Which means you'll have to raise your ISO on your FF camera by about a stop and a third to compensate for the F-stop. Which negates most of the low-noise benefits of FF.

I shoot weddings full time, and I'm still using an APS-C system (70D). Now that lenses are resolving more detail for the higher pixel density of most crop cameras, FF isn't the magic bullet that it used to be, especially if you don't often shoot wide open. f2.8 on a FF will perform pretty similarly to f1.8 on a crop. Obviously there's other advantages (some improved dynamic range, less enlargement for print, etc…).


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Jun 16, 2015 10:19 as a reply to  @ Archibald's post |  #44

I am aware of that (I was just pointing to one example where I feel, rightly or wrongly, that the T4i is limiting and a much more robust ISO/low light capability is desired). In other situations, that is certainly another draw of the 6D.

Flash - that's one thing I've stubbornly yet to adopt. That is probably something I should have stated in my initial post - I only use light that is otherwise available (not because I'm some purist, it's just how my photography has evolved thus far). Anyway, your suggestion is welcome and is something to think about.


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Jun 16, 2015 10:25 as a reply to  @ rebelsimon's post |  #45

But doesn't the FF's ability to handle higher ISO with less noise mean that the FF will perform better in the example you gave? Having never shot on FF I'm not really sure and that's why I ask (and that's why I posted in the first place!)

Thanks.


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