Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 25 Jun 2015 (Thursday) 11:53
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

I'm gonna rant a bit

 
GuitarDTO
Goldmember
1,857 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 475
Joined Jul 2012
     
Jul 01, 2015 17:15 |  #46

kirkt wrote in post #17616346 (external link)
I think some of this has to do with folks getting into photography, which has become increasingly more accessible and affordable, without learning the craft and the technique - this leads to settling for mediocre results and possibly dressing up the image with "artistic" effects and calling it "art." There is a craft to photography and image making. Sliding sliders without understanding the motivation behind those moves may make something that you or your mom or your friends like and think is artistic, but it is probably not art.

One can argue about "what is art?" but an image that demonstrates that one has mastered the craft of image making will be objectively apparent. One of the most critical aspects of mastering the craft is learning to accept and understand critique. Even if you strongly disagree with someone's critique, it will often lead you to think about your craft and your image making outside of the very specific context of the critique of that one image. The idea of creating "art" is highly personal and can evoke emotional responses to critique that might make the artist shut down and not listen. It takes an open mind to listen to, and process, critique and take from it that which will help your craft evolve and improve.

In terms of post-processing, one often sees someone post a question about Lightroom or Photoshop tutorials - how do I get started? I cannot even imagine trying to tackle these applications without having a basic understanding of how to evaluate an image and visualize the changes and edits the image might benefit from to make the image the artist had in mind, regardless of the software one uses to do so. In other words, learning what the clarity slider does without understanding why you would want to use it is an exercise in luck more than deliberate image making. That's a tough way to make an image that satisfies the artist or the artist's client.

Finally, styles and trends in processing change over time. Finding one's own style takes time and may change and evolve as the artist explores the medium and discovers new techniques or methods to express their ultimate vision for their images. Few people start with perfection and many people spend their lives trying to achieve it. Mastery of the craft takes time and experience and it certainly helps to learn from someone who has mastered their craft and can share their wisdom and offer valuable critique.

kirk

I get what you are saying and why you are saying it, but I'm not agreeing with it. There are many many people who are perfectly fine with firing away at whatever camera they have with no rhyme or reason, slapping some filters on the photos, and it makes them perfectly happy with no further desire to "learn and master the craft". You may not like those images, but it makes them perfectly happy. Not everyone pretends that is "art". Hell the majority of instagram users are doing this as a form of personal expression more so than a desire to create "art".

That is definitely not my approach, but I'm not going to pass judgement or get upset by it because others approach photography that way. Good for them. Heck if anything I'm more bothered at how overly sensitive more serious photographers tend to be. I follow Photography blogs on Flipboard, and I laugh reading the comments sections of almost every article at the critical comments that almost always pour into any post no matter how good the pictures linked are.


Gear: 5D3, 135L, Sigma 35, 50 1.8 STM, 16-35 F/4L IS, 85/1.8, Fujifilm X100T
Flickr: DavioTheOne (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
chauncey
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,696 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 462
Joined Jun 2007
Location: MI/CO
     
Jul 01, 2015 19:27 |  #47

There are many many people who are perfectly fine with

Were you to finish that sentence with the word "mediocrity", you would have described most of mankind.
Were I to pursue my feelings of mankind in general, this thread would come to a screeching halt...
it's far to interesting as it is to follow that path.

Instead let us take this image of windswept snow mounds, add a little of this and a little of that and
you might wind up with a nighttime desert scene.

PHOTOBUCKET EMBEDDING IS DISABLED BY THIS MEMBER.
Photobucket sends ads instead of embedding photos from their free galleries.
Click the link (if available) below to see the image in a gallery page.

http://i329.photobucke​t.com …s/l383/chauncey​43/RAW.jpg (external link)


PHOTOBUCKET EMBEDDING IS DISABLED BY THIS MEMBER.
Photobucket sends ads instead of embedding photos from their free galleries.
Click the link (if available) below to see the image in a gallery page.

http://i329.photobucke​t.com …c68-be12-024b013fb15b.jpg (external link)

The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

My stuff...http://1x.com/member/c​hauncey43 (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tonylong
...winded
Avatar
54,657 posts
Gallery: 60 photos
Likes: 546
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
     
Jul 01, 2015 20:30 |  #48

Chauncey, more info, as in the original images that provided the "source" image(s)? And then, the processing you applied?

And, with regards to your rant:

"Were you to finish that sentence with the word "mediocrity", you would have described most of mankind. Were I to pursue my feelings of mankind in general, this thread would come to a screeching halt... it's far to interesting as it is to follow that path."

Seriously should we all work to make the first image to look like the second??:)


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
Tony Long Photos on PBase (external link)
Wildlife project pics here (external link), Biking Photog shoots here (external link), "Suburbia" project here (external link)! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics here (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Nathan
Can you repeat the question, please?
Avatar
7,888 posts
Gallery: 18 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 352
Joined Aug 2007
Location: Boston
     
Jul 01, 2015 23:50 |  #49

Misleading? Unless I'm mistaken, the second image is not a derivative of the first. Hence, why chauncy said one "might" end up with the second image.


Taking photos with a fancy camera does not make me a photographer.
www.nathantpham.com (external link) | Boston POTN Flickr (external link) |
5D3 x2 | 16-35L II | 50L | 85L II | 100L | 135L | 580 EX II x2

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
chauncey
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,696 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 462
Joined Jun 2007
Location: MI/CO
     
Jul 02, 2015 06:33 |  #50

No, it's not a specific derivative, it merely represents a conception/where the idea originated.
The image displayed is from, if memory serves me correctly, 6-8 different base images, including the deer tracks shown below.
I took several dozen "snow drift images" the winter of 2012-2013.

Tony, I'm 72 y/o...I don't remember what I had for breakfast let alone how I created something 18 months ago.
My recent smoke images involve most of the distortion tools in PS CC. Turning this wisp of smoke into a disrobing young lady was easy.

PHOTOBUCKET EMBEDDING IS DISABLED BY THIS MEMBER.
Photobucket sends ads instead of embedding photos from their free galleries.
Click the link (if available) below to see the image in a gallery page.

http://i329.photobucke​t.com …uncey43/deer%20​tracks.jpg (external link)

PHOTOBUCKET EMBEDDING IS DISABLED BY THIS MEMBER.
Photobucket sends ads instead of embedding photos from their free galleries.
Click the link (if available) below to see the image in a gallery page.

http://i329.photobucke​t.com …y43/wisp%20of%2​0smoke.jpg (external link)


PHOTOBUCKET EMBEDDING IS DISABLED BY THIS MEMBER.
Photobucket sends ads instead of embedding photos from their free galleries.
Click the link (if available) below to see the image in a gallery page.

http://i329.photobucke​t.com …y-partially-clad-copy.jpg (external link)

The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

My stuff...http://1x.com/member/c​hauncey43 (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
pknight
Goldmember
Avatar
2,693 posts
Gallery: 39 photos
Likes: 128
Joined Feb 2006
Location: Flyover Country
     
Jul 09, 2015 15:46 |  #51

Interesting thread, but I didn't feel compelled to comment until I saw the smoke images. They raise, in my mind, a question about defining photography, much less art. Sure, these started as digital photographs, but without seeing the unaltered originals, I am reasonably certain that the use of "most of the distortion tools" in PS means that the end results (which I think are quite good) are probably not even suggested by what the camera captured. I would consider this more of a creative process that happened to use a photograph as a starting point, but ended up with something quite different, thanks to the creative vision and skill of the (dare I say it?) artist.

I often take photographs that are quite abstract, but that is due to the perspective, distance, framing, etc. of the subject of the image. You might not know what you are looking at when you view them, but they are faithful representations of some part of reality. These are clearly photographs. I have also created collages from extreme close-ups of stained glass pieces. The individual parts of the final image started as photographs, but I don't consider the end results to be themselves photographs. Whatever 'art" might be in these images is a function of how they were combined to create something new. Once I got the idea for the finished image, I could have done the same thing with construction paper or pieces of soup can labels (although the effects would have been different).

I guess I am saying that, for me, once an image is processed enough to create a new reality that did not exist before, then "photography" fails to capture what is being done. It is more like post-processing as an art form, since that is where the "magic" in these images is being created.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
chauncey
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,696 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 462
Joined Jun 2007
Location: MI/CO
     
Jul 10, 2015 08:17 |  #52

It is more like post-processing as an art form

All I'm suggesting is that basic photography is a learned craft and that with today's gear, coughing out a satisfactory image is really no big deal.
You put that camera in a specific spot, which is dictated by vision and experience, dial in the correct settings, and voila, you have a pretty picture.

But, to go a step further and turn that pretty picture into an object d'art requires some degree of post-processing/digital artwork.
I would agree that post-processing, in and of itself, can be an art form, merely witness the movie industry and their created sets.


The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

My stuff...http://1x.com/member/c​hauncey43 (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gonzogolf
dumb remark memorialized
30,171 posts
Gallery: 263 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 7902
Joined Dec 2006
Post edited over 5 years ago by gonzogolf.
     
Jul 10, 2015 08:39 as a reply to  @ chauncey's post |  #53

So if you dont post orocess for effect, it can only be craft and not art? Total horse apples.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
chauncey
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,696 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 462
Joined Jun 2007
Location: MI/CO
     
Jul 10, 2015 11:06 |  #54

What I'm suggesting is that, IMHO, any image can be improved with judicious PP.


The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

My stuff...http://1x.com/member/c​hauncey43 (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gonzogolf
dumb remark memorialized
30,171 posts
Gallery: 263 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 7902
Joined Dec 2006
     
Jul 10, 2015 17:44 |  #55

chauncey wrote in post #17626962 (external link)
What I'm suggesting is that, IMHO, any image can be improved with judicious PP.

Or equally ruined. You have suggested a line between art and craft that doesnt exist.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
pknight
Goldmember
Avatar
2,693 posts
Gallery: 39 photos
Likes: 128
Joined Feb 2006
Location: Flyover Country
     
Jul 10, 2015 18:01 |  #56

chauncey wrote in post #17626812 (external link)
But, to go a step further and turn that pretty picture into an object d'art requires some degree of post-processing/digital artwork.

So, you seem to be saying (in fact, you did say) that photographic art requires post-processing. Utter nonsense. There is no question that post-processing can improve (or ruin) many images, but PP is not required to make a photograph artistic. Your examples show how image manipulation and combination can be used to create interesting results, but that does not mean that straightforward photographs cannot have artistic merit.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
GeoKras1989
Goldmember
Avatar
4,038 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 262
Joined Jun 2014
     
Jul 10, 2015 19:11 |  #57
bannedPermanent ban

pknight wrote in post #17627410 (external link)
So, you seem to be saying (in fact, you did say) that photographic art requires post-processing. Utter nonsense. There is no question that post-processing can improve (or ruin) many images, but PP is not required to make a photograph artistic. Your examples show how image manipulation and combination can be used to create interesting results, but that does not mean that straightforward photographs cannot have artistic merit.

Moot point. There is no such thing as a photograph that has not been manipulated. It is not possible. Straight-forward photograph my BWA. Going back to film, the image is affected by everything from the medium the photo-reactive particles are imbedded in, to the chemistry of the particles themselves, to the dark-room chemicals, processing, printing inks, dyes, papers, glass in the lenses, the light the product is viewed under, yadda-yadda-yadda. The same applies to digital: from the glass to the viewer, thousands of things affect the final image.

ALL photographs are processed. That is the definition of photography. Without processing, there is no photograph.

If you want realty, look out the window. Photography is a recording medium. It is affected by EVERYTHING in the process.


WARNING: I often dispense advice in fields I know little about!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
drifter106
Senior Member
Avatar
549 posts
Gallery: 9 photos
Likes: 168
Joined Feb 2006
Location: Kansas
     
Jul 10, 2015 19:14 |  #58

Looking on the other side of the coin...

This thread to me is a good indicator that shows how diversified photography and photographers are. The OP, imagine If you will all photographers that frequent this site were on par with your said level of "PP". We could also infer that all baseball players have the ability of Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson. Never gonna happen. I look at it from the flipside. Surely we can agree that in this day and age, we still have a large number of people interested in photography.

I for one go back to the Canon AE-1. Do I know PP...absolutely not. But does that mean I will not make an effort to utilize it....in time.

Read through about 3/4 of this thread and soon realized there came a point where "art", in my mind, was crossing into the "photography" arena. That for some is a good thing but to me if you overkill the PP is it truly photography? Personally, honing my skills to take a "great" photo is more challenging AND rewarding than pushing buttons on a keyboard to enhance a picture.

I am just thankful we have what we have and some of us have develop their skills to utilize software to enhance their photography.


Gear
Remember, what is common knowledge to some is a revelation to others.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
GeoKras1989
Goldmember
Avatar
4,038 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 262
Joined Jun 2014
     
Jul 10, 2015 19:34 |  #59
bannedPermanent ban

drifter106 wrote in post #17627473 (external link)
Looking on the other side of the coin...

This thread to me is a good indicator that shows how diversified photography and photographers are. The OP, imagine If you will all photographers that frequent this site were on par with your said level of "PP". We could also infer that all baseball players have the ability of Babe Ruth or Walter Johnson. Never gonna happen. I look at it from the flipside. Surely we can agree that in this day and age, we still have a large number of people interested in photography.

I for one go back to the Canon AE-1. Do I know PP...absolutely not. But does that mean I will not make an effort to utilize it....in time.

Read through about 3/4 of this thread and soon realized there came a point where "art", in my mind, was crossing into the "photography" arena. That for some is a good thing but to me if you overkill the PP is it truly photography? Personally, honing my skills to take a "great" photo is more challenging AND rewarding than pushing buttons on a keyboard to enhance a picture.

I am just thankful we have what we have and some of us have develop their skills to utilize software to enhance their photography.

This is a very interesting and thoughtful post. The AE-1 takes me back. I remember drooling over that piece of art. At the time I was shooting a Ricoh KR-30sp. Memories....

Ok, Photography is a really broad categorization. Some of it is art. Some not. They are not, and should not be, the same thing. Much like painting is considered art if you make something on canvas that crazy people pay $14M for. Painting my kitchen makes me a painter. It does not make me an artist. I have been a photographer for more than 50 years. I am not an artist. Most of my work is snapshots of pets, family, vacations. That is not to say I don't try to get creative. I have some specialty lenses, and a modicum of ability to process photos with LR, DPP, PSE, and such. Those of you who make the mistake of believing that any of that makes me an artist will be sadly disappointed in my work. I don't give a FFA. I am not shooting for you. I am shooting for my family, for posterity, and for the fact that my wife love's hanging my work in the house, good and bad.

My modesty, and the memory of my mother, prevents me from proclaiming any talent on my part. That said, I have been offered paid shoots. Without fail, I turn them down. Getting paid would make me a professional, subject to someone else's subjective point of view. I prefer to keep my photography a hobby, something I do on my terms because I enjoy it. Getting paid for it, and having to perform to another's expectations would take all the fun out of it.

Photographer Artist. Professional. These are all very different, separate and distinct, terms. Some people mix them. Some do not. It is a huge mistake on one person's part to make any assumptions about how someone else stirs that pot. I am a photographer. That, in and of itself, makes no comment on my abilities.


WARNING: I often dispense advice in fields I know little about!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
pknight
Goldmember
Avatar
2,693 posts
Gallery: 39 photos
Likes: 128
Joined Feb 2006
Location: Flyover Country
     
Jul 10, 2015 23:21 |  #60

GeoKras1989 wrote in post #17627471 (external link)
Moot point. There is no such thing as a photograph that has not been manipulated. It is not possible. Straight-forward photograph my BWA.

Well, that raises the tone of the discussion. Thanks for that.

The examples of PP provided by the OP resulted in images that do not represent anything that ever existed. That is fine. My use of "straight-forward" was in comparison to that, and my comments about PP were in reference to the degree of manipulation necessary to create these sorts of fantasy images from captured photographs.


Digital EOS 90D Canon: EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, Life-Size Converter EF Tamron: SP 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII, 18-400mm f/3.5-6.3 DiII VC HLD, SP 150-600 f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2, SP 70-200 f/2.8 Di VC USD, 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 DiII VC HLD Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 DC Art Rokinon: 8mm f/3.5 AS IF UMC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

16,675 views & 53 likes for this thread
I'm gonna rant a bit
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Brik
742 guests, 304 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.