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Thread started 15 Jul 2015 (Wednesday) 08:08
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Sigma lenses - why no E-mount?

 
Shadowblade
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Jul 15, 2015 08:08 |  #1

Another great lens from Sigma, another lens not available for Sony E-mount:

http://www.imaging-resource.com …-35mm-f-2-art-lens-review (external link)

Any ideas as to why Sigma is completely ignoring the full-frame E-mount, when it's becoming increasingly popular and so many people (I daresay the majority of A7r users) are using them with adapters and third-party lenses, including Canon-mount Sigmas. After all, they even make them compatible with their own (Sigma) cameras, which no-one buy.

Between the 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 24/1.4 and now this, there are many Sigma lenses I'd love to be able to use on a Sony camera to their full potential. It's just a matter of changing the mount on the back of the lens - no redesign of the lens at all!




  
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David ­ Arbogast
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Post edited over 3 years ago by David Arbogast. (3 edits in all)
     
Jul 15, 2015 08:27 |  #2

Shadowblade wrote in post #17632306 (external link)
Another great lens from Sigma, another lens not available for Sony E-mount:

http://www.imaging-resource.com …-35mm-f-2-art-lens-review (external link)

Any ideas as to why Sigma is completely ignoring the full-frame E-mount, when it's becoming increasingly popular and so many people (I daresay the majority of A7r users) are using them with adapters and third-party lenses, including Canon-mount Sigmas. After all, they even make them compatible with their own (Sigma) cameras, which no-one buy.

Between the 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 24/1.4 and now this, there are many Sigma lenses I'd love to be able to use on a Sony camera to their full potential. It's just a matter of changing the mount on the back of the lens - no redesign of the lens at all!

Probably still just a matter of time: http://www.sonyalpharu​mors.com …s-for-the-sony-fe-system/ (external link)

Wasn't it last year that Sigma started their program where users could send their Canon-mount lenses in and have Sigma switch out the mounts to Nikon or Sony A-mount (and vice-versa)? Would be nice if they added the E-mount to that program as well. That way new customers can buy the lens in the mount they need, while existing customers who have switched from Nikon/Canon to Sony could get their lens mounts switched. They're missing opportunities.

I may be in the minority, but I am enthused about Sigma's concept of a prime-like zoom that maximizes image quality and aperture by keeping the zoom range modest.


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Shadowblade
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Jul 15, 2015 08:52 |  #3

David Arbogast wrote in post #17632326 (external link)
Probably still just a matter of time: http://www.sonyalpharu​mors.com …s-for-the-sony-fe-system/ (external link)

Wasn't it last year that Sigma started their program where users could send their Canon-mount lenses in and have Sigma switch out the mounts to Nikon or Sony A-mount (and vice-versa)? Would be nice if they added the E-mount to that program as well. That way new customers can buy the lens in the mount they need, while existing customers who have switched from Nikon/Canon to Sony could get their lens mounts switched. They're missing opportunities.

That would be very nice - start by buying Canon-mount lenses now, then change them to E-mount when the option becomes available.

I may be in the minority, buy I am enthused about Sigma's concept of a prime-like zoom with a small range that maximizes image quality and aperture, while keeping the zoom range very modest.

I'd like that too, provided they don't sacrifice any image quality over the prime. It'd be like having two primes in the space of one. 11-16mm, 24-35mm, and 50-85mm would all be nice. As would a no-compromises 200-400 with inbuilt teleconverter that wasn't tied to a single lens mount option.




  
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mystik610
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Jul 15, 2015 08:55 |  #4

There’s risk involved with developing a lens for a system that doesn’t have enough buyers to re-coup the R&D, development and production costs, so they’ve likely been waiting for the market to mature before getting their feet wet. The FE mount may not have even been on their radar initially, but it’s pretty hard to ignore now. Zeiss has jumped on board, and I’m sure Tamron and Sigma will follow. Tamron and Sigma actually has actually released a few APS-C e-mount lenses, so there’s some precedent there. The Sony and Zeiss lenses are pretty pricey, so there’s definitely room in the market for cheaper alternatives within the FE mount.

Even with the a7rII’s AF system, I would prefer native lenses over adapted lenses for features like eye-focus. The question for me is whether Sigma will employ totally new optical designs for the FE mount, or if they’ll go the route of Rokinon and simply adapt DSLR designs and leave a spacer between the mount and the actual optics. The smaller (without compromising optical quality), the better for me.


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Shadowblade
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Jul 15, 2015 09:00 |  #5

mystik610 wrote in post #17632351 (external link)
There’s risk involved with developing a lens for a system that doesn’t have enough buyers to re-coup the R&D, development and production costs, so they’ve likely been waiting for the market to mature before getting their feet wet. The FE mount may not have even been on their radar initially, but it’s pretty hard to ignore now. Zeiss has jumped on board, and I’m sure Tamron and Sigma will follow. Tamron and Sigma actually has actually released a few APS-C e-mount lenses, so there’s some precedent there. The Sony and Zeiss lenses are pretty pricey, so there’s definitely room in the market for cheaper alternatives within the FE mount.

There's no risk involved in adding an E-mount option to existing Sigma lenses. All it involves is a spacer and a bit of wiring - just like all the other mounts. Nikon has the longest flange distance, so it has the shortest spacer. Canon has a longer one. Sony E-mount would require a longer spacer still.

Even with the a7rII’s AF system, I would prefer native lenses over adapted lenses for features like eye-focus. The question for me is whether Sigma will employ totally new optical designs for the FE mount, or if they’ll go the route of Rokinon and simply adapt DSLR designs and leave a spacer between the mount and the actual optics. The smaller (without compromising optical quality), the better for me.

You can only make a wide-aperture lens so small - if you want f/1.4 (or f/2 in longer lenses) you pay for it in size.

Small and cheap works for APS-C lenses, but many who use the A7r want the best possible image quality at any size, and A7s users will also want the wide apertures for low-light photography. Sure, release a small/cheap line as well, but also give us the option of using full-size lenses on E-mount. After all rumour has it that the upcoming Sony E-mount pro body won't be nearly as small as the A7 series, prioritising function over small size, so E-mount doesn't necessarily mean miniature.




  
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mystik610
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Post edited over 3 years ago by mystik610. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 15, 2015 09:32 |  #6

Shadowblade wrote in post #17632356 (external link)
There's no risk involved in adding an E-mount option to existing Sigma lenses. All it involves is a spacer and a bit of wiring - just like all the other mounts. Nikon has the longest flange distance, so it has the shortest spacer. Canon has a longer one. Sony E-mount would require a longer spacer still.

Sure there is from a production standpoint. It doesn’t make sense to risk stock-outs by tying up production capability producing lenses for a mount with less demand, when you could free up that capacity to schedule production for mounts in higher demand.

Sigma very recently made this decision with the 24-105 F4 when they halted production of the a-mount versions in order to meet demand elsewhere. Of course they could simply build out more manufacturing capability, but then they expose themselves to a greater the risk of idle production, and the financial risk of spending the capital to build these new facilities when there is uncertainty about there being a market to support it.


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Shadowblade
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Jul 15, 2015 09:59 |  #7

mystik610 wrote in post #17632388 (external link)
Sure there is from a production standpoint. It doesn’t make sense to risk stock-outs by tying up production capability producing lenses for a mount with less demand, when you could free up that capacity to schedule production for mounts in higher demand.

Sigma very recently made this decision with the 24-105 F4 when they halted production of the a-mount versions in order to meet demand elsewhere. Of course they could simply build out more manufacturing capability, but then they expose themselves to a greater the risk of idle production, and the financial risk of spending the capital to build these new facilities when there is uncertainty about there being a market to support it.

Yet they still persist in producing Sigma-mount versions, when there's no market for these whatsoever.

Besides, A-mount is a dying format. E-mount is a rapidly-growing one - and, unlike Canon and Nikon (where shooters often already have an established stable of lenses with a low turnover rate, due to the mounts having been around for a long time), E-mount users are often buying more gear and getting their stable of full-frame E-mount lenses set up.

In any case, it doesn't tie up much production capability - Canon, Nikon, Sigma and A-mount versions of the lenses are identical (thus produced on the same line) except for the mount, which is bolted on last and is a nonmoving, non-optical component that's easily interchangeable anyway.




  
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Jul 15, 2015 11:20 |  #8

N And C ignored the call for mirrorless and full frame, look where they now stand.. 2 different but weak mirrorless solutions. If Sigma ignore the FE mount they will regret it. They could simply adapt Dslr lenses or take the plunge with smaller lenses and happy e-mount users.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Jul 15, 2015 11:35 |  #9

Neilyb wrote in post #17632477 (external link)
N And C ignored the call for mirrorless and full frame, look where they now stand.. 2 different but weak mirrorless solutions. If Sigma ignore the FE mount they will regret it. They could simply adapt Dslr lenses or take the plunge with smaller lenses and happy e-mount users.

Look how huge the FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA is. Carlo showed it side-by-side with the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 with the adapter attached...not much bigger at all. So, yeah, Sigma doesn't not need to redesign the lenses at all -just design the revised mount. https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=17503651


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Jul 15, 2015 13:07 |  #10

Shadowblade wrote in post #17632421 (external link)
Besides, A-mount is a dying format. E-mount is a rapidly-growing one - and, unlike Canon and Nikon (where shooters often already have an established stable of lenses with a low turnover rate, due to the mounts having been around for a long time), E-mount users are often buying more gear and getting their stable of full-frame E-mount lenses set up.

It's all a matter of timing, and whatever the sense of the direction the market is moving at the time the decision to build an e-mount vs and a-mount was made. It's easy in hindsight to say that 2 years ago when the a7 cameras hit the market that Sigma should have invested more resources in developing FE lenses, but there was a lot of uncertainty about how well consumers would adopt the a7 system. At the time, someone at Sigma likely decided that the a-mount was a better use of resources at the time.

Even if Sigma was confident about the adoption of a7 cameras, they may not question "if" they should enter the market, but they will have to question "when" to enter the market. Do they do so prematurely when there are fewer potential consumers for FE lenses, or put their resources elsewhere until the market matures? It's a risky proposition when their ability to sell FE lenses is directly tied to how well Sony can sell the bodies.

Shadowblade wrote in post #17632356 (external link)
There's no risk involved in adding an E-mount option to existing Sigma lenses. All it involves is a spacer and a bit of wiring - just like all the other mounts. Nikon has the longest flange distance, so it has the shortest spacer. Canon has a longer one. Sony E-mount would require a longer spacer still.

Without insight in Sigma's production processes its impossible to know for sure, but given that the mount is built into the lens body, there likely is some point at the latter end of production where a decision is made about how much production capability is allocated to slapping an EF mount in front of a lens, and how much is allocated to slapping an A mount or potentially an FE mount. Production capability at any point of the process is finite, and the tolerances should be very tight end-to-end. If they stock out of EF lenses because of a bottleneck at the "mount attachment phase", they're literally leaving money on the table. Sigma as is, struggles for months to keep up with the demand of their new lenses upon release.

This is where the tires of marketing meet the road of business operations. I can see why Sigma had the stance they did when the a7 cameras initially hit the market, and why their position has very recently changed as the market for a7 cameras is starting to mature.


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Jul 15, 2015 13:48 |  #11

With dslrs it's easy for them to change it to another mount. Just the autofocus is their issue there.


With mirrorless it's an entirely different design.

Mirrorless lenses usually use less glass since they don't have to compensate for the mirror.

It's not just a matter of swapping the mount and software change, they have to design a new lens all together.
It's not really that the market is not there by Sony it's that Canon and Nikon are screwing up. If those two had great mirrorless bodies then Sigma would be making mirrorless lenses.


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Jul 15, 2015 15:15 |  #12

maverick75 wrote in post #17632610 (external link)
With dslrs it's easy for them to change it to another mount. Just the autofocus is their issue there.


With mirrorless it's an entirely different design.

Mirrorless lenses usually use less glass since they don't have to compensate for the mirror.

It's not just a matter of swapping the mount and software change, they have to design a new lens all together.
It's not really that the market is not there by Sony it's that Canon and Nikon are screwing up. If those two had great mirrorless bodies then Sigma would be making mirrorless lenses.

That doesn't add up. If that is true - that mirrorless lenses use less glass - then:

1. Why are the native lenses for the a7 platform all about the same weight and size (some bigger/heavier and some less) as the comparable Canon or Nikon DSLR lenses. Why, for instance, is the Sony FE 70-200mm f/4 a little larger and heavier than the Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM? Haven't done the weight/size comparison, but the Sony FE 35mm f/1.4 ZA might be bigger/heavier than the Canon version.

2. Why do non-native Canon-mount lenses perform so well mounted to a Sony a7 series camera via adapter. Per your theory, wouldn't it be true that they would perform poorly since they have so much extra glass?

Not saying you're wrong - I'm no expert, but the claim that mirrorless lenses usually use less glass doesn't seem to square with all that I know about the native Sony FE-mount lenses vs. their DSLR counterparts.


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Jul 15, 2015 16:27 |  #13

maverick75 wrote in post #17632610 (external link)
With dslrs it's easy for them to change it to another mount. Just the autofocus is their issue there.


With mirrorless it's an entirely different design.

Mirrorless lenses usually use less glass since they don't have to compensate for the mirror.

It's not just a matter of swapping the mount and software change, they have to design a new lens all together.
It's not really that the market is not there by Sony it's that Canon and Nikon are screwing up. If those two had great mirrorless bodies then Sigma would be making mirrorless lenses.

You can put the same lens in front of a mirrorless camera as a DSLR. We've been doing it ever since the A7r came out, and some people with the Leica even before that. You only use less glass if you're trying to make the whole lens smaller, and that usually comes at the expense of image quality.

You don't need to compensate for the mirror in an SLR, since the mirror moves out of the way - all you need is a greater flange distance.

Sure, if Sigma wanted to make a line of dedicated, small, lightweight mirrorless lenses, they'd have to redesign them. But no redesign would be necessary to make their line of full-featured, full-size, wide-aperture lenses fit onto E-mount - which is what many users want anyway, instead of another compromised f/4 zoom or f/2.8 prime.




  
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Jul 15, 2015 16:43 |  #14

I'm trying to find the original interview, but I do remember one of the Sigma executives saying that the E-Mount is a difficult mount to make lenses for. (This could explain why there's so much in-camera corrections.)

That being said, they have since said they will make E-mount lenses.

http://photorumors.com …lenses-for-sony-fe-mount/ (external link)


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romanv
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Jul 15, 2015 18:29 |  #15

I think it's a case of that FE mount is *potentially* more compact because of last element being potentially closer to the sensor.

Example - the 50mm F0.95

A complex and expensive design for DSLR, A sub $1000 design for E mount.

I'd expect that the advantages of E mount flange distance apply more to wider angle lenses than longer ones.

With my 400mm prime the last glass element is a long way inside the body of the lense, so it wouldnt even matter if the flange was 100mm from the camera body.

However on a 14mm lense or something, I would expect that could potentially mean you can have more of the glass elements behind the aperture blades instead of in front.

[wild speculation]




  
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Sigma lenses - why no E-mount?
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