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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Glamour & Nude Talk 
Thread started 14 Mar 2015 (Saturday) 11:28
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Is this ethical?

 
Acetoolguy
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Mar 19, 2015 16:08 |  #16

"She is new and just starting out but has a lot of potential."

Perhaps she is simply unaware of the customs?


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sspellman
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Mar 19, 2015 21:56 |  #17

Its reasonable to communicate with the model that originality is very important in the modeling world and professionalism. You don't expect models to copy or reuse makeup looks, specific concepts, designer clothing, etc. She is new and needs to learn a few things. Its helpful to give her advice gently instead of just blacklisting her.


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Aswald
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Mar 19, 2015 22:09 |  #18

Ethical, maybe, maybe not? Professional, no.

Consider it your contribution to her career and be happy with it.

I suspect that when she moves up the ladder, if she does.... or get a fashion contract eventually, she'd likely have to use their MUA anyways and would probably go without make up.

If she succeeds, good. If she doesn't, she'll need to figure out why. This scenario would have had an effect too by then.

Most of all, she'll have to learn about being professional.




  
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bigburpsx3
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May 04, 2015 00:39 |  #19

Acetoolguy wrote in post #17482537 (external link)
"She is new and just starting out but has a lot of potential."

Perhaps she is simply unaware of the customs?

This sounds like a reasonable explanation.




  
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tdlavigne
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May 08, 2015 01:24 |  #20

I don't see it mentioned, but did you pay the makeup artist? Or was it merely a test shoot? If you paid, then I'd be more likely to be irritated if I were you...because you paid for a specific look, and she's basically taking your money and going to someone else and benefiting from you. Simple solution, don't shoot with her for free anymore.

Technically I wouldn't say it was unethical, just a messed up thing to do. You could have always had her wash it off, but then again that assumes you had a feeling she was going to shoot with that makeup afterwards. There's really nothing to do about it now, except don't do any favors for her in the future.




  
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AlFooteIII
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May 09, 2015 10:22 |  #21

Just to push into the extreme, I don't know if there are any MUAs that read the forum, but I suppose an argument could be made that the model was benefiting from their make-up design without permission. If it was just a "normal" makeup design, that would be hard to argue. But if it were some high concept design that would be unique and identifiable, I could see that argument having some traction.

In the stated case, I think the tacky and unprofessional part was talking about it at the next shoot (probably the reason the model who told you even thought to mention it).


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DocFrankenstein
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Jun 03, 2015 22:59 |  #22

It devalues your work, but your have no claim for the makeup unless you paid AND specified exclusivity.

But none of it matters in the TFP world. Don't let it affect your ego.


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Luxx
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Jun 04, 2015 03:34 |  #23

This definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

I don't know with whom to be annoyed. I can imagine a scenario where the model was just booking shoots sequentially for convienance and the photographer convinced her to keep the makeup. We know your opinion of him and she is new.

If that is true I think it is unethical...but the other photog is at fault.




  
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the ­ flying ­ moose
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Jul 24, 2015 02:32 |  #24

This is why I rarely shoot models. I have had models ask me to go last in shoots so their makeup is more "fresh" because they are going out afterwards or they are doing other shoots and their makeup would have been an out of pocket expense for them.




  
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ElTigreBlanco
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Aug 02, 2015 20:43 |  #25

I think the ethics of the situation are really what the focus should be. There are business ethics, professionalism, and personal ethics at play here. It all depends on how the shoot was explained and what type of expectations were given from either side (a contract would state most of the details but is also intimidating or possibly offensive to a beginner who doesn't understand the intricacies of our side of the business- kind of similar to a pre-nup but in business it's just business) It sounds like you enjoyed collaborating with the model so you chose her to test the MUA with you. If no money was exchanged I would imagine most people's thought would be "oh cool, I will go get this awesome makeup done and get some shots from that other photographer to give them a proper chance to impress me with their images and then go on a date with that person that's probably out of my league/go out with my friends while I feel really pretty!" The new model probably has no idea that her doing so would cause you any frustration and just thought oh neat now I have a day to go out in nice makeup. I'm sure she would understand if you broke down for her how that affects you and the MUA by rendering your photos and the makeup art less unique.
I do see how you are upset/frustrated with the situation since you surely put some effort into organizing the shoot.But keep in mind that most people don't have any idea how much work goes into photography because so much of it is done without a camera at all- social networking, market research, editing, and all of the finer points of creating a specific style to set yourself apart. So I would just let her know- better yet I think the MUA should join or discuss this point- that the work done for your shoot is part of your unique package of capabilities and if she wants to use a MUA in the future she should hire them herself if she plans to do multiple shoots from one sitting with her MUA. This leaves the style of shot and uniqueness in the hands of each photographer with no expectation that the model's look was a result of any specific photographer/MUA collaboration. If the MUA is acting as a part of your brand and you come up with looks maybe you could make an agreement that she only provide those certain looks for your photography but if MUA isn't on your team then it's really not something you should be too upset with.


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Reservoir ­ Dog
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Post edited over 3 years ago by Reservoir Dog.
     
Aug 02, 2015 21:00 |  #26

I am just surprised that you let your models leave the session with the makeup -?
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Aug 23, 2015 00:41 |  #27

Littlejon Dsgn wrote in post #17475288 (external link)
If you don't want the model using your makeup then have her wash it off before leaving. Otherwise what she does when she leaves your shoot is up to her. It's smart business thinking on her part, she had a photographer wanting to test a MUA on her and another photographer wanting to shoot, why not schedule those back to back.

Would you be as upset if she went out clubbing afterwards using your makeup?

In my opinion your being overly sensitive.

+1, this is my view...

It's too easy to get spun out about right vs wrong, unethical vs ethical, about things in the past, rather than just moving forward, and if there's a lesson to be learned, well, get on with it! In this case, if there is a concern, the MUA can clean off the model when the shot is done! But if the model is free to leave, once she steps out the door she is "Public"! Any old photog can get a shot of her!


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fk6065
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Jan 20, 2016 11:07 |  #28

Well thanks everyone for the varied opinions, very educational.




  
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CameraMan
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Jan 31, 2016 11:55 |  #29

My $.02... It's her body. Once she leaves your studio she can do whatever she wants with it. Especially, if she is a paying customer. Even though she didn't pay you for this gig.

It's sort of like going to a fast food place, buying a hamburger and going to another restaurant and using their mayonnaise on it. Is it wrong? Meh... hard to say.

The only person that would be out of line here is the other photographer. Especially if he was being paid for the shoot. But that's another line to cross and I wouldn't even worry about that.


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absplastic
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Feb 02, 2016 21:26 |  #30

For you, this is just something to have a laugh about. There are two scenarios where this may be slightly unethical, both of which are only likely to harm the reputation of the other photographer, if anyone. The most interesting point to consider is whether the model made photographer #2 aware that her makeup was done for another photographer's shoot.

If the other photographer knew it was from your test shoot, he should have asked her to remove the makeup for the sake of his own reputation and artistic integrity. I wouldn't shoot a model in second-hand makeup and risk being seen as stealing another creative team's work! If he knew, his choice to shoot her as-is was possibly a bit unethical, but mostly it was just a bad decision.

If the other photographer genuinely thought the model did her own makeup, or had it done for his shoot, and the model did not tell him otherwise, then I would go so far as to say the model did indeed do something unethical; she's put another photographer's professional reputation at risk to get herself a few more portfolio shots. If the makeup job is unique enough that the photographer gets called out on it, he'll likely take the flak for it, not the model. The industry treats models as clueless, sadly, and will expect the photographer to have inquired about the model's makeup, for the purposes of correct attribution.

Do you know for certain which of these situations applies?


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Is this ethical?
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