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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2015 (Thursday) 07:12
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced

 
David ­ Arbogast
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Post edited over 4 years ago by David Arbogast. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 08, 2015 12:43 as a reply to  @ post 17661076 |  #1561

I am using an older Sandisk 64 GB 60 MB/s Extreme, and I am getting just a half-second delay at most.


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Aug 08, 2015 13:29 |  #1562

tvphotog wrote in post #17661076 (external link)
I just called Canon about it, and they say that shouldn't be happening, esp with a fast card. Maybe it's a setting issue, for NR or something. Will play with it and then post again.

No, no setting problem. Canon compared the 5D3 and the S/R just as I did and said that indeed the S/R is slower and that it was never meant to be a fast camera. They probably did nothing to change the buffer for the larger file.

Wonder if this will be dealbreaker for me, I'm still in the return period.

i used many cards already, including a SanDisk Extreme Pro 160 mb/s card (I think this is their fastest?) and a Transcend 1066x, and a variety of others. The ALL do this.

it might not be the card. it could be the processing speed and some other factors. these RAWs are up to 70mb... that's a TON of data to crunch.

as for settings, i have all the fancy stuff off like lens profiles and such. the only setting i have active is standard NR, which is set to low.

yeah, it's frickin' annoying. but on the other extreme side there's a Leica with no LCD at all, and there are photographers who love that idea. so... perhaps a little less dependence on the LCD could be a good thing.


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tvphotog
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Aug 08, 2015 14:17 |  #1563

David Arbogast wrote in post #17661084 (external link)
I am using an older Sandisk 64 GB 60 MB/s Extreme, and I am getting just a half-second delay at most.

David,

Did you turn off any settings that I may have on?


Jay
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David ­ Arbogast
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Aug 08, 2015 15:00 |  #1564

tvphotog wrote in post #17661172 (external link)
David,

Did you turn off any settings that I may have on?

I'm sorry, I think your experience is the same as me. I was shooting LV and when doing so there is an audible click, and then a delay and another audible click for the operation to end. The result then appears immediately in the LCD. But, if I just take a standard shot (not LV) then I'm getting the same delay you are. I'm not entirely certain what the delay is in the LV shooting mode - I figure something to do with the EFC shutter. Canon has smartly designed the whole shutter mechanism to resist shutter shake.

My other comment is that I am undoubtedly less demanding regarding that delay. If that is a critical feature for you then I can see your need to return the camera.


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sploo
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Aug 08, 2015 15:01 |  #1565

tvphotog wrote in post #17661172 (external link)
David,

Did you turn off any settings that I may have on?

It's not a similar problem to the 5D3 is it; whereby using an SD card cripples the performance of the CF card? Even if it's been improved (I understood it has) it might still be a case that the CF slot gets limited to the speed of the SD slot. Might be worth disabling the SD card and trying just the CF card (if you are using both).


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tvphotog
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Post edited over 4 years ago by tvphotog. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 08, 2015 15:16 |  #1566

sploo wrote in post #17661225 (external link)
It's not a similar problem to the 5D3 is it; whereby using an SD card cripples the performance of the CF card? Even if it's been improved (I understood it has) it might still be a case that the CF slot gets limited to the speed of the SD slot. Might be worth disabling the SD card and trying just the CF card (if you are using both).

You may have something there. I don't have the camera in front of me at this moment, but I wonder if I have it set to write to both cards rather than using the SD as a backup as I do with my 5D3. I'm going through the manual page by page looking for the upgrades to the 5D3 (such as creating a Custom Quick Selection view from the Info button) and I think I skipped over the memory card page too fast, forgetting that you can set how writng to the two cards can be personalized. Thank you for the suggestion. Will update the post when I've got the bad boy in hand.


Jay
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sploo
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Aug 08, 2015 15:30 |  #1567

tvphotog wrote in post #17661242 (external link)
You may have something there. I don't have the camera in front of me at this moment, but I wonder if I have it set to write to both cards rather than using the SD as a backup as I do with my 5D3. Thank you for the suggestion.

IRC You can indeed have an SD card in the 5D3 without causing performance problems, as long as you're not writing to it. As soon as it's used then the interface drops down to the speed of the SD slot. I understand the SD slot in the 5DS supports the higher/newer modes (UHS-1 if I recall correctly).

A quick look at some specs suggests UHS-1 can be 50MB/s or 104MB/s bus speed. Compare that to the CompactFlash UltraDMA Mode 7 at 167MB/s and it might still be possible that the 5DS supports UHS-1 and UDMA7, but, if the buffer clearing is limited to the slowest bus (as with the 5D3) you may be reducing your potential performance by a third. Total speculation on my part as I don't own a 5DS to test.


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Aug 08, 2015 16:44 |  #1568

As long as we're on this topic of cards, is there any rational reason that Canon is using a CF and an SD card in the 5D series? Why use two CF's in the 1Dx and not in the 5 series if you're going to have two slots? Just so you have to buy a $6K body so you can have the two CF's?


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Aug 08, 2015 17:18 |  #1569

tvphotog wrote in post #17661328 (external link)
As long as we're on this topic of cards, is there any rational reason that Canon is using a CF and an SD card in the 5D series? Why use two CF's in the 1Dx and not in the 5 series if you're going to have two slots? Just so you have to buy a $6K body so you can have the two CF's?

I can only think that space was a bit of a concern. But cynically speaking it was more likely more feature crippling to protect the top line body


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Aug 08, 2015 17:54 |  #1570

smythie wrote in post #17661357 (external link)
I can only think that space was a bit of a concern. But cynically speaking it was more likely more feature crippling to protect the top line body

It isn't the cards - either or them. It is the buss - the 1Dx has a faster rated buss - that is the problem and it was a stupid omission given the price of the camera but likely deliberate to avoid additional engineering specs.

When the 1Dx II arrives that is 24megs at 15fsp then you will see a buss designed to move the size of the files that the 5DSR is trying to move.

The above said, if it is used in the way the end buyer is suppose to use it it is fine - but is still pisses me off as there was really no reason not to uprate the buss.


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Aug 08, 2015 22:09 |  #1571

I have now had the 5DS R for a week, having just returned from the Maccabi games in Milwaukee where my daughter was playing soccer. For the past week, I was able use it for sports (shot 4 soccer games), landscapes, portraits as well as general walk around purposes. While I understand that I admittedly suffer from G.A.S. (though my wife was the one who bought me the camera as a present), I will say that I am very happy with the performance of the camera. I know that the camera may not suit the needs of a lot of people, but I think as photographers you have to decide how you will use the camera. I always say that you have find a camera that works well for you. You can't look solely at specs on a piece of paper. Specs will not tell you how it feels in your hand; how your mind will react to the menus, to the layout of the buttons and such. A camera is a tool, much like a paint brush to an artist. To me, how a camera feels in your hands and how it functions is even more important that all of the specs. Now I am not saying that you disregard the specs, but all of the cameras at this level, whether from Nikon, Sony or Fuji, are all very capable cameras that can each produce great images. It is more about which tool fits you as the artist. Now, having said that, I will admit that I don't shoot video and will use it solely as a still camera and I like the fact that the menus work similar to my 5Diii and even that they can use the same battery and battery grip. The biggest surprise during my first week: the improvement in AWB modes. I knew from all the reviews and research what to expect in image quality, but somehow I missed the discussion on the improvements to AWB - even when working in mixed lighting situations - (I know with 105 pages I probably missed it, but still) which to someone who frequently sets white balance in Lightroom was a great surprise.

Now I am a bit old fashioned in my workflow choosing to save my files on my RAID storage first using my own filing system, then importing to Lightroom. I have noticed however that Windows (7- 64 bit) no longer shows the thumbnails of the CR2 files. Does anyone know of an updated codec for windows for the 5DS/R?


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Aug 09, 2015 20:16 |  #1572

Shadowblade wrote in post #17511989 (external link)
5D3 shooters (who will presumably be looking to migrate to the 5D4) don't often seem to shoot at base ISO, though, so any low-ISO DR improvements would be lost on them.

It's the landscape and architecture high-MP photographers who really need it. And most of us are not going to buy a <36MP (by next year, probably <50MP) camera for professional landscape work, regardless of the DR.

I try and shoot at ISO 160 in my studio stuff and ISO 100 outside. But true the latter can vary wildly if say exposing for the background needs it.
To me the nice thing about the 5D3 is - it is a bit of a "decent allrounder"
OK I may be a bit of an oddball 5D3 users........but I guess there might be a few of us who use it formstudio workmand why go over the synch speed? ( when you have 2,500 watts of Studio lighting.)
Out of interest what would you say the typical 5D3 users shoots?


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Aug 10, 2015 03:32 |  #1573

Submariner wrote in post #17662779 (external link)
I try and shoot at ISO 160 in my studio stuff and ISO 100 outside. But true the latter can vary wildly if say exposing for the background needs it.
To me the nice thing about the 5D3 is - it is a bit of a "decent allrounder"
OK I may be a bit of an oddball 5D3 users........but I guess there might be a few of us who use it formstudio workmand why go over the synch speed? ( when you have 2,500 watts of Studio lighting.)
Out of interest what would you say the typical 5D3 users shoots?

FYI You might be better shooting at ISO 160 outside too: as far as I recall the 5D3 exhibits the least noise at ISO 160. I can't remember the link to the online tool at the moment, but there's a good one that lets you specify your camera and it tells you the noise at each ISO. The 5D3 is best at multiples of 160, up until you get into fairly high values.

For me, the 5D3 is definitely a great all-rounder. I take SB's point about base/low ISO though; I'd rather be there if I can, but that's different to a landscape shooter on a tripod who's much more likely to be able to stay at a low ISO (and is more likely to need every last ounce of DR).

I'm still hoping for a 5D4 with a ~30MP sensor, dual-ISO for 15 stops of DR, and whatever AF system goes into the 1Dx II - that'll be a great all rounder ;-)a


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Aug 10, 2015 06:18 |  #1574

smythie wrote in post #17661357 (external link)
I can only think that space was a bit of a concern. But cynically speaking it was more likely more feature crippling to protect the top line body

yep...agree 100%.

Coming from a product marketing background I too am cynical about the reason for crippling some of the features they could have offered..... like, dual CF cards, fast FPS /buffer, 4k video, 1080p 60fps, Headphone socket etc etc. This 50 megapixel camera was a certainty in my book to impact/cannibalise sales of the 1d and 5dm3 product lines if it had marketed a full non crippled feature set that catered to both videographers and still photographers. And I bet they could have got the buffer faster as well to enable way higher FPS even for a full 50 meg file...And there is no reason why they couldnt have done a 10FPS + speed for the other crop settings they have in the 5DSR menu but they didnt because it would have meant people would look at it for action( sports, wildlife etc) photography and then the 1dx and 7d2 would under threat of cannibalisation. In my mind 50megapixels is a sitter for people who crop a lot like sports and wildlife photographers....... so Im sure if this camera had a faster FPS count it would have had many of these target photographers beating a path to line up to buy a 5dsr........Who wouldnt want one for those photographic activities if it allowed a sports or wildlife shooter to be a little more flexible in shooting wider and not have to worry about cropping aggressively until PP where they could then crop out 50% of the image and still end up with a larger file than a 1dx and 5dmk3. By limiting the features means Canon may be able to sell this camera to people already owning a 1dx or 5dmk3 and need the larger 50 megapixel for some other reason apart from what they use their existing n1dx and 5dmk3 for......Certainly that is better for Canon rather than targeting this camera as a direct replacement to these bodies for those types of photographers . ..

The other important consideration by Canon Marketing in my mind was protecting against possible consumer /buyer backlash that would occur if a feature ridden 5dsr was brought out on top of the 1dx. The last thing Canon want is their loyal 1d customer base thinking the 1dx had somehow been superceded by a lesser product. Its all about protecting the brand/product positioning.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Aug 10, 2015 10:07 |  #1575

sploo wrote in post #17663106 (external link)
FYI You might be better shooting at ISO 160 outside too: as far as I recall the 5D3 exhibits the least noise at ISO 160. I can't remember the link to the online tool at the moment, but there's a good one that lets you specify your camera and it tells you the noise at each ISO. The 5D3 is best at multiples of 160, up until you get into fairly high values.

That's how it runs for most Canons; 160 is actually +1/3 stop EC at ISO 200 (same gain as ISO 200 metered for 1/3 stop more exposure, and RAW values multiplied by 4/5 or 0.8. Think of the noise in the image as having three parts; photon noise, photosite read noise, and downstream read noise (between photosite amplification and digitization). Photon noise and photosite read noise have nothing to do with amplification or downstream noise; it is determined solely by the amount of light hitting the sensor, so whether you use ISO 320, ISO 320 with HTP, ISO 400 with or without HTP but with +1/3 stop EC (which is actually 320), the photon and photosite read noises are exactly the same, and another way to look at it is that there is a smooth progression of these noises going from 100 to 125 to 160 to 200, etc. Photosite read noise increases by 1/3 stop, and photon noise increases by 1/6 stop for each 1/3 stop increase in ISO (assuming you use the camera's metering for those ISOs).

Downstream read noise, however, is an awkward anomaly. It has nothing to do directly with the level of sensor exposure, but only to do with the strength of signal *after* amplification. It is exactly the same strength, therefore, at all ISOs in the series 100 - 200 - 400 - 800, etc.; how much of it you get depends only on the RAW tonal level at the ISO used, and has nothing to do with the ISO itself. At low ISOs, it is most of the noise in the darker tones; at very high ISOs, it is so small compared to the other two noise sources that it is practically irrelevant. This is why Canon sensors are limited in DR; they have quite a bit of downstream read noise compared to other manufacturers. Besides having this extra noise, the way 1/3 stop ISOs work on most Canons that have them is that they are pushes and pulls of the 1-stop ISO series, so ISO 160 pulls the downstream noise from ISO 200, and ISO 125 pushes the downstream noise from 100, so ISO 125 has 2/3 stops more downstream noise than ISO 160, rather than having less, as one might assume.

Do you actually see the difference? It depends on what you do with your low-ISO shadows. If you have a Canon with low banding noise (low-ISO banding noise is almost exclusively downstream noise, or at least behaves like it), and you don't push the shadows up much, then you probably won't see it. You certainly won't see it at high ISOs, because, as I said above, downstream read noise is insignificant at high ISOs. Using HTP is a 1-stop push but without any mathematical push; just a change in metering. It is just understood that the HTP RAW levels in the RAW file are overstated by a factor of 2x. HTP can therefore be disastrous on a camera with high banding at the lowest ISOs, if you need the shadows to show. Another ugly mathematical push is microlens compensation; at some f-number from about 2.8 down to 2.0, depending on pixel size, light is lost in the microlenses because they can not pass all the extra light that the lower f-numbers should give. What Canon does is push mathematically to compensate, losing DR and increasing downstream noise relative to what should be the signal. So, using f/0.95 with ISO 250 and HTP is a shadow disaster, with three stages that cause increased downstream read noise (where banding lurks) relative to signal.

The original 5D and at least the earlier 1D-series cameras with 1/3-stop ISOs did not do these mathematical pushes and pulls; they used an amplifier just before the ADC which had the benefit of keeping the highlight headroom the same at all ISOs (mathematical pushes and pulls change headroom), but has the same problem with 1/3-stop ISOs in the lower range, and actually worse, because 160 is not 200 with a 1/3-stop pull, but 100 with a 2/3-stop push, worse for downstream noise than most other Canons by 1 stop for the same ISO.

A huge mess Canon has created for us to wade through!




  
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OFFICIAL : 5DS and 5DS R Announced
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