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Thread started 06 Aug 2015 (Thursday) 09:25
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Canon 7d mk ii, why so many for sale

 
John ­ Sheehy
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Aug 15, 2015 12:50 |  #46

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17669706 (external link)
The 7D2 seems to be a stop better than the 7D, and about a stop worse than the 5D3. Here is ISO 6400.

The 7D2 has about 1 stop less read noise than the 7D, but shot noise is very similar, so you shouldn't get a full stop, but the 7D2 noise has a much better character, so, I think that if you are cropping hard, the 7D2 has more than 1 stop less practical, visible read noise than the 7D.

Your 7D2 vs 5D3 comparison does not look completely equitable; the 5D3 is rendered with much less sharpening, and it has lower contrast, both of which exaggerate the noise difference in the 5D3's favor. It is really very difficult to get equitable comparisons from different cameras without a lot of tweaking in the converter.




  
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Luxx
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Aug 15, 2015 15:03 |  #47

I understand that people who are really good a post processing…or even just pretty good compared to me might be able to get different results but looking at the online comparison sights I compared 70D, 6D and 7Dii and it seemed that 6D was one stop better at higher ISO than 7Dii which was one stop better than the 70D.

Currently I have a 6D and a 70D. I will bring 6D to 6400 ISO and get pretty good results and I like my 70D up to about 1600. So I guess that means I would like 7Dii to 3200.

I purchased the 70D to use for video and sports and birds with the higher frame rate and reach. However, for sports the 6D even at low frame rate was just so much better that I didn't end up using the 70D for sports. However, I think that 10 frames and only one stop means that I probably would use the 7dii for sports some I'm considering it.




  
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Aug 15, 2015 19:31 as a reply to  @ John Sheehy's post |  #48

I ran both through the same version of DPP and dropped the NR values to 0 for both. Also ran the same settings elsewhere. However, the lenses weren't the same, and that might have an impact on the IQ, but not the noise.


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Aug 15, 2015 20:50 |  #49

Can't wait to see your comparison, TS! Your stated results mirror what I see; the noise on both the 7D2 and 5D3 seem much more amenable to NR than earlier cameras, which lets me use them at higher ISO than you would otherwise expect. I generally shoot a test batch of photos for a camera when I buy it, and use those to determine where the visible noise "turns the corner" and starts becoming objectionable. As a result I shoot the 7D2 at ISO1600 and the 5D3 at ISO3200 as my defaults, knowing that I won't need any special PP. I have pushed the 5D3 to 12800 for available light work and gotten beautiful results, and honestly the 7D2 at 6400 is pretty good if I've metered properly.

I remember struggling to get acceptable results with Tri-X at ISO3200 (half an hour to develop in Microdol) and can't believe how fortunate we are to have these modern cameras to work with.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Aug 16, 2015 09:07 |  #50

GregDunn wrote in post #17670288 (external link)
Can't wait to see your comparison, TS! Your stated results mirror what I see; the noise on both the 7D2 and 5D3 seem much more amenable to NR than earlier cameras, which lets me use them at higher ISO than you would otherwise expect. I generally shoot a test batch of photos for a camera when I buy it, and use those to determine where the visible noise "turns the corner" and starts becoming objectionable. As a result I shoot the 7D2 at ISO1600 and the 5D3 at ISO3200 as my defaults, knowing that I won't need any special PP. I have pushed the 5D3 to 12800 for available light work and gotten beautiful results, and honestly the 7D2 at 6400 is pretty good if I've metered properly.

I remember struggling to get acceptable results with Tri-X at ISO3200 (half an hour to develop in Microdol) and can't believe how fortunate we are to have these modern cameras to work with.

The best is yet to come. There are prototypes now of photon-counting sensors with 1.4 micron pixels (like a 12MP 1/2.3" sensor) that have only about twice the amount of read noise as the threshold below which 99.9% of read noise can be ignored and known to be read noise. IOW, once read noise gets below 0.15 electrons, it is effectively 0 electrons of read noise, because in the RAW histogram, each photon count has its own read noise histogram separate from the next higher and lower count (a series of distinct bell curves). Firmware can then simply count the entire mini-histogram as one count; photon counts without read noise. That won't improve the highlights of ISOs 800 and 1600 very much, but it will clear up the noise muck in shadows, and make extreme ISOs and extreme shadows of low ISOs far more usable than they are now. With true photon counting, blacks are black, without any noise reduction software. Those colorful clouds and clumps you see in the dark areas of an image - gone before the image even gets written to a RAW file, without detail-destroying NR.

When it comes in an EOS body, I have no idea.




  
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Aug 17, 2015 15:56 |  #51

Where are y'all seeing "all these 7d Mk II's for sale?"

I ain't seeing them and God knows I've been looking.




  
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crbinson
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Aug 17, 2015 21:23 |  #52

WilsonFlyer wrote in post #17672674 (external link)
Where are y'all seeing "all these 7d Mk II's for sale?"

I ain't seeing them and God knows I've been looking.

A quick search of the Classified turned up 5 so far this month...

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1437376
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1437303
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1436675
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1436344
https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1436287


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Aug 18, 2015 10:35 |  #53

to be honest i cant say Ive seen heaps of 7DIIs for sale, but I believe there will be a few people out there who like when 7D was released blame the camera instead of user error. When I purchased my original 7D it was a week old, used by first owner for a week and returned as they claimed it could not get a clear photo, I took the chance and got it VERY reduced price and never had an issue with focus, However I did have to read up a bit on the focus system. I sold that camera still in good working order last year (although with a lot of shutter count) and got an early model 7DII, never had an issue, had to micro adjust lenses but I'm loving it, in most situations it keeps up image quality wise with my 5DIII, when light is good, cant even pick which camera is used. Love both of these cameras, perfect pair. The 5DIII is a great camera but when reach limited the 7DII leaves it for dead


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Aug 18, 2015 20:17 |  #54

aladyforty wrote in post #17673524 (external link)
to be honest i cant say Ive seen heaps of 7DIIs for sale, but I believe there will be a few people out there who like when 7D was released blame the camera instead of user error.

Been a while since i have been here but I have to say I think you are spot on.

I still have my original 7D and when I bought it I made the effort to learn the camera and it's unique characteristics.

I bought mine from an acquaintance who was unhappy with the results he got from it, he just knew the 7D was to blame.

Couple of months later and I showed him some of the work I had been doing .... he swears I sent the camera back and paid Canon to repair it.




  
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Aug 19, 2015 00:18 as a reply to  @ harcosparky's post |  #55

have to say Teamspeed was a godsend when i was trying to get used to my original 7D, have applied most of what i learned with 7D to 7DII and cant say its been hard at all this time around


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Aug 21, 2015 11:55 as a reply to  @ WilsonFlyer's post |  #56

same here. didn't have the money found 3 of them for around 1000. Work OT, save have said 1000, none for sale!


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Oct 03, 2015 15:57 |  #57

I have 2 1DMKIV cameras that I use for air show photography. But even with long lenses there are times when I wish I had more MPs to crop from, or a longer lens.

For that reason I bought the 7DII. I figured it being 1.6x crop and having 4 more MPs than my 1D4 would be a benefit when shooting objects (planes) at a distance.
I used my 7DII at two air shows, with the 300 f2.8 IS II and the new 400 DO II, both with & without 1.4xIII and 2xIII extenders. I shot at various shutter speeds for both propeller planes and jets.

I found that my 7DII images were consistently softer than those from my 1D4. Not really bad, just a bit softer. Probably not a deal breaker for most users, but because I consider myself a sharpness freak, I prefer the 1D4.

I think the 7DII is a great camera. I like the AF area selection lever - a nice feature. But I like my two 1D4s better. They work better for me when panning aircraft in flight. In fact, the reason might be me. Maybe the smaller sensor size and more MPs requires better panning skills. I don't really know, I'm just speculating.

I may sell my 7DII, I'm not sure at this time. I already have two 1D4s, 6D, and SL1.


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Oct 03, 2015 20:56 |  #58

I have had moments like that too, but sometimes the results are just as good. I don't have the nice long Canon lenses like what you have, I have my Sigma 50-500, and it seems to perform just as good on the 7D2 vs the 1D4. Maybe that is the difference in what I see vs you?

Here is a sample, and from what I have shot in the past this seems to match my 1D4 results. Unfortunately I don't have it now in order to do a back to back comparison. :(


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John ­ Sheehy
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Oct 03, 2015 21:26 |  #59

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #17731482 (external link)
I have 2 1DMKIV cameras that I use for air show photography. But even with long lenses there are times when I wish I had more MPs to crop from, or a longer lens.

For that reason I bought the 7DII. I figured it being 1.6x crop and having 4 more MPs than my 1D4 would be a benefit when shooting objects (planes) at a distance.

It certainly should be better than cropping the 1D4 more.

I used my 7DII at two air shows, with the 300 f2.8 IS II and the new 400 DO II, both with & without 1.4xIII and 2xIII extenders. I shot at various shutter speeds for both propeller planes and jets.

I found that my 7DII images were consistently softer than those from my 1D4. Not really bad, just a bit softer. Probably not a deal breaker for most users, but because I consider myself a sharpness freak, I prefer the 1D4.

At 100% pixel view, the 1D4 should have the potential to be sharper, but that's only because you're hiding what the 1D4 can deliver or fail to deliver, by keeping the magnification of the sensor area that a plane falls on lower. It's a game of illusion. With the same lens, subject, distance, shuter speed, and all else, bigger pixels will always look sharper and have more acuity in 100% pixel views, unless the bigger pixels have a significantly stronger AA filter than the smaller pixels, in which case, a 100% pixel view of the smaller pixels could be sharper.

Sharpness, however, is often an illusion, and is not necessarily subject detail.

I think the 7DII is a great camera. I like the AF area selection lever - a nice feature. But I like my two 1D4s better. They work better for me when panning aircraft in flight. In fact, the reason might be me. Maybe the smaller sensor size and more MPs requires better panning skills. I don't really know, I'm just speculating.

I doubt it, unless the 7D2 has more mirror slap visible at the shutter speed used, or it's AA filter is tremendously stronger. It's the illusory way of looking at the results, most likely. What do you see on your monitor when you upsample 100% crops from the 1D4 to 140%? That's what the 7D2 is really competing with in focal-length-limited situations.




  
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Oct 03, 2015 23:28 |  #60

John Sheehy wrote in post #17731794 (external link)
What do you see on your monitor when you upsample 100% crops from the 1D4 to 140%? That's what the 7D2 is really competing with in focal-length-limited situations.

Thanks for pointing this out. I has the same time experience when I went from a 40D to a 7D. Much less frustrating when you realize what up us going on.


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