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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 13 Oct 2015 (Tuesday) 03:07
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what would you do.. used image

 
silly101963
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Oct 13, 2015 03:07 |  #1

i have donated many images to a national organization over the years for money raising/auctions just because i support them.
late last fall for a state calendar they needed some images for it and deadline for printing was just weeks away and did not have enough quality images to use.
i was contacted for some images and agreed to donate some to use in the calendar..my only stipulation was i NEED PHOTO CREDITS..
and was assured i would be given credits.. that was brought up by me several times..and the answer was always yes..
well when i see the calendar they used 7 images and NO credits to me anywhere... another photographer had a couple pics in it also and did have photo credits FOR HIM.
when i questioned the guy i spoke with originally he said he did not know how that could have happened so i contacted the guy who was in charge of printing and he said he would get back to me when he figured it out.. he never did..and have sent emails with no response back.
then i left a message with the head state guy he did call back but i was unable to talk at the time and plan on calling him back when i have a few ideas.
i have sold images in the past form people seeing photo credits. and this time cant even use for portfolio..
i have no written contract just verbal and emails.
i have learned from this everything will be sold from now on..




  
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PineBomb
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Oct 13, 2015 03:36 |  #2

Sorry to hear that. Unless you have some compelling reason to continue the relationship, I would politely sever it with respect to pro bono photos.


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shumicse
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Oct 13, 2015 04:39 |  #3

It is needed to be aware of the whole process before going to make any contract!




  
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john ­ crossley
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Oct 13, 2015 04:49 |  #4

silly101963 wrote in post #17743401 (external link)
i have sold images in the past form people seeing photo credits. and this time cant even use for portfolio..

Why can't you use them in a portfolio?


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Dan ­ Marchant
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Oct 13, 2015 06:03 |  #5

silly101963 wrote in post #17743401 (external link)
i have sold images in the past form people seeing photo credits. and this time cant even use for portfolio..

Of course you can. Most commercial photographers don't get a credit but they still tear the finished image/advert out of the magazine to use in their portfolio - that is why it is called a tear sheet.

i have no written contract just verbal and emails.
i have learned from this everything will be sold from now on..

Or just get a contract that states that you you supply the image for use free of charge provided the publication includes a credit in the form of "image supplied by X - www.website.co" and that failure to include the credit will incur a fee of $8,000 per image.


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lilkngster
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Oct 13, 2015 07:27 |  #6

Not in the pay for image business but wondering, could you come back at them with the approach that they stole the images, i.e. copyright infringement? Sure there are the emails, but they didn't hold up their end in the final product and you have the originals, so the lack of a contract also bites them in the a.

At this point, what are you hoping to get? Money, force them to print a recognition page and slip it into the calandar/force them to reprint, a case of free calendars?


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Oct 13, 2015 11:22 |  #7

hey, Steve!

As others have said, there is no reason why you can't use the calendar tearsheets in a portfolio. There is no need for a credit to be present on work that is in a portfolio; just the fact that it is in your port is good enough. It's not like anyone looks for the credit to see if it is "really your" photo or anything. I've used lots of stuff in my port and often times I honestly don't know if there was a credit there or not (I'm getting quite far-sighted, and some credits are small, so I don't even bother to look for them anymore).


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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golfecho
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Oct 13, 2015 11:37 |  #8

OK, my input - Verbal contracts are just as legal as written contracts. The problem is verbal contracts rarely have any documentation to back them up, so it becomes he said-she said. However, you have mentioned a couple of times that there "are nothing but e-mails". My thought is these very e-mails, although not contracts in and of themselves, may very well provide the validation/back-up that there was indeed a verbal contract. Depending on how valuable your images are, you may have a case based on these e-mails. (This is where you contact a REAL attorney). Also, find one of those sites (Getty?) where value of images can be determined based on publication details. Good luck!


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TooManyShots
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Oct 13, 2015 11:54 |  #9
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I thought you should be more pissed because you didn't get paid. Photo credits?? Can you use these credits to buy things? Did photo credits in the past get you paid down the road? Donations and freebies too me are once or twice thing. If they are regularly relying you for photos, is time for them to pay up.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Tom Reichner with reason 'grammar'.
     
Oct 13, 2015 11:59 |  #10

.

TooManyShots wrote in post #17743920 (external link)
I thought you should be more pissed because you didn't get paid. Photo credits?? Can you use these credits to buy things? Did photo credits in the past get you paid down the road? Donations and freebies too me are once or twice thing. If they are regularly relying you for photos, is time for them to pay up.

Did you read Steve's entire post?

silly101963 wrote in post #17743401 (external link)
I have sold images in the past form people seeing photo credits....

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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PineBomb
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Oct 13, 2015 12:01 |  #11

golfecho wrote in post #17743895 (external link)
Depending on how valuable your images are, you may have a case based on these e-mails. (This is where you contact a REAL attorney).

True, but the real question is what are the damages for donated images. The words tentative, nominal and null come to mind. There is potential indirect harm, but I think that's a more difficult hurdle than the existence of the contract.

Then there's the entirely different matter of whether it's even prudent to proceed against the organization. There may be potential risk to the OP's professional reputation. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just throwing out other considerations.


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golfecho
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Oct 13, 2015 12:12 |  #12

PineBomb wrote in post #17743931 (external link)
True, but the real question is what are the damages for donated images. The words tentative, nominal and null come to mind. There is potential indirect harm, but I think that's a more difficult hurdle than the existence of the contract.

Then there's the entirely different matter of whether it's even prudent to proceed against the organization. There may be potential risk to the OP's professional reputation. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just throwing out other considerations.

These are all really great points. I'm just mentioning that what are thought of as stray e-mails may have value. You are correct on the bigger picture. I think the organization is probably aware they messed up since they are reluctant to return calls, etc. The OP now has to decide what to do next (or not to do next year, etc). Short of distributing an extra "photo credit sheet" with each calendar, this edition is probably a lost cause.


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PMGphotog
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Post edited over 2 years ago by PMGphotog. (2 edits in all)
     
Oct 13, 2015 12:28 |  #13

Looks like the OP had a good working arrangement initially to gain exposure and build on his portfolio but then the organisation used a deadline to get some more work for free and totally disregarded a simple request for a credit. ( Ok we know credits are not the same as cash, but the photographer can show other potential clients that their work has been used for an organisation and this can lead to generating income later on. It's difficult to get work unless you can show a body of work.)

In his position I would follow one of several courses.

1) Write it off to experience and make sure to use actual contracts and briefs in future. And only do paid for work for this particular organisation in the future.

2) Email the initial contact who asked for the images and CC in any other people at the organisation you have supplied images to in the past, politely asking why you haven't been credited as per your stipulations.

3) Collate all your emails to and from this organisation ( also mention what was verbally agreed and with whom and when, phone calls,face to face etc), and then add an invoice for the uncredited images at the fee you think your work is worth and send this to them ( this will probably get a swift response as you are asking for payment. It might not actually result in a payment though.)

As to using the images for your own portfolio, even if you had been paid for the images in the first place, unless a contract or agreement over usage exists, the images are yours to use as you see fit. The fact that you had no fee and no photo credit adds weight to this as either a verbal or written contract would have stipulated that the images could only be used for the calendar. You didn't get a photo credit so the organisation in question has not kept to the spirit of the arrangement.

I know a few photographers, myself included who have been in similar situations and it's a pain in the behind, but treat it as a learning experience and move on. If your work has been used by this organisation then I'm sure other clients will be willing to pay a decent rate for it.


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njstacker22
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Oct 13, 2015 12:50 |  #14

I'm not sure who works for photo credits anyway. Your "relationship" with them was very one sided.


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TooManyShots
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Oct 13, 2015 12:50 |  #15
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Here is some perspective on this before we go all legal and lawyering... Look, I am sure you have enough photos from this organization to be used on your portfolio. Would this particular 7 shots help? I am assuming you are shooting the same subject matter. How many of these types of shots you need for your portfolio? By pissing over photo credits over these images and the verbal contract, you are losing sight of things. I see no reasons why you can't use these photos. In fact, I see no reasons why you should be continuing shooting for them. If you want to build your portfolio, shoot something else.

I say you should end your relationship with this group. Considering you have been shooting for free for them, I don't even think there was any relationship to begin with. They want free photos and you are too eager to provide. That was the relationship. If you don't shoot for them, they would just look for free photos from someone else.


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