Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 01 Nov 2015 (Sunday) 09:45
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Expertise vs pretention

 
this thread is locked
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
7,745 posts
Gallery: 540 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1503
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
     
Nov 06, 2015 20:49 |  #91

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #17773843 (external link)
Here's a simple one, scientifically, will the sun rise tomorrow?

Objectively, scientifically, no.

THE SUN WILL NOT RISE TOMORROW.

Objectively, a mere ball of flaming gas will illuminate the world as it comes into our view due to the planets rotation.

We know this, and yet the subjective view is still the pernicious little thing that drives every word of the sentence, "The Sun will rise tomorrow"

It's the only way we speak of it, and it's completely based on our subjective view and the little lies we've learned since childhood.

Actually for an observer on earth, using earth as the fixed reference frame, then the sun will indeed "rise" in the sky. At least by the usually acceptable definition of the word rise, i.e move in an upwards direction.

This is important, because thanks to Special Relativity if C (speed of light in vacuum*) is a constant for all observers, in all frames of reference simultaneously, then either spatial dimensions, or time are not constant for all observers. Thanks to relatively small portable Cesium atomic clocks, and fast jets, it is actually quite easy these days to show that time is indeed different for observers in different reference frames.

*Actually it also doesn't matter that the speed of light varies in different media, the point is that speed will be constant in that media for all observers in all frames of reference.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
LV ­ Moose
Moose gets blamed for everything.
Avatar
23,232 posts
Gallery: 186 photos
Best ofs: 4
Likes: 3702
Joined Dec 2008
Post edited over 2 years ago by LV Moose.
     
Nov 06, 2015 21:15 as a reply to  @ BigAl007's post |  #92

There's no guarantee or proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. It could burn out, blow up, implode, whatever.

Or, the earth could be destroyed, in which case there's no sunrise, just the sun.


Moose

Gear... Flickr (external link)...Macro (external link)...Hummingbirds (external link)
Aircraft (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
Avatar
7,896 posts
Likes: 2666
Joined Oct 2015
     
Nov 07, 2015 00:17 |  #93

LV Moose wrote in post #17774909 (external link)
There's no guarantee or proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. It could burn out, blow up, implode, whatever.

Or, the earth could be destroyed, in which case there's no sunrise, just the sun.

Sunrise is a optical illusion based on a misconception.

If the sun, for whatever reason, ceases to exist, life on earth will follow in a matter of days.

If the earth is destroyed, there will still be sunrises on the other planets in our solar system.


Tom

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
LV ­ Moose
Moose gets blamed for everything.
Avatar
23,232 posts
Gallery: 186 photos
Best ofs: 4
Likes: 3702
Joined Dec 2008
Post edited over 2 years ago by LV Moose. (2 edits in all)
     
Nov 07, 2015 00:55 |  #94

Bassat wrote in post #17775029 (external link)
Sunrise is a optical illusion based on a misconception.

If the sun, for whatever reason, ceases to exist, life on earth will follow in a matter of days.

If the earth is destroyed, there will still be sunrises on the other planets in our solar system.

Your third statement contradicts the first, and the second is irrelevant.

The point is, there is no scientific proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. If you say you "know" it will, you're just relying on inductive reasoning and probabilities, based on what has happened in the past.


Moose

Gear... Flickr (external link)...Macro (external link)...Hummingbirds (external link)
Aircraft (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
Avatar
7,896 posts
Likes: 2666
Joined Oct 2015
     
Nov 07, 2015 03:17 |  #95

LV Moose wrote in post #17775040 (external link)
Your third statement contradicts the first, and the second is irrelevant.

The point is, there is no scientific proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. If you say you "know" it will, you're just relying on inductive reasoning and probabilities, based on what has happened in the past.

Astute analysis!


Tom

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
LV ­ Moose
Moose gets blamed for everything.
Avatar
23,232 posts
Gallery: 186 photos
Best ofs: 4
Likes: 3702
Joined Dec 2008
     
Nov 07, 2015 09:59 |  #96

Bassat wrote in post #17775081 (external link)
Astute analysis!

Sometimes my brain malfunctions, and I have a lucid moment. Which is not to say I'm necessarily correct, just lucid.;-)a


Moose

Gear... Flickr (external link)...Macro (external link)...Hummingbirds (external link)
Aircraft (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joedlh
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,246 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Likes: 387
Joined Dec 2007
Location: Long Island, NY, N. America, Sol III, Orion Spur, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Cluster, Laniakea.
     
Nov 07, 2015 10:19 |  #97

OhLook wrote in post #17768186 (external link)
welshwizard, I think there's something peculiarly American about Eggleston's work, a kind of brashness, a celebration of the gritty details of the everyday environment, a defiance of the conventional ideal of beauty. Maybe this doesn't mesh with U.K. sensibilities.

I happen to live in the U.S. and my photos are nothing like Eggleston's and I don't like his stuff. Academic categorizations fail in the instance. They just give one the faux self-perception of being one of the intelligentsia. Alas, fine arts teachers have to pad out the semester with something.


Joe
Gear: Kodak Instamatic, Polaroid Swinger. Oh you meant gear now. :rolleyes:
http://photo.joedlh.ne​t (external link)
Editing ok

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bassat
"I am still in my underwear."
Avatar
7,896 posts
Likes: 2666
Joined Oct 2015
     
Nov 07, 2015 10:34 |  #98

joedlh wrote in post #17775289 (external link)
I happen to live in the U.S. and my photos are nothing like Eggleston's and I don't like his stuff. Academic categorizations fail in the instance. They just give one the faux self-perception of being one of the intelligentsia. Alas, fine arts teachers have to pad out the semester with something.

Ah, the fine arts! Where a crucifix in a jar of urine is acceptable. I am completely areligious, and that offends me. So does calling what Eggleston does art. If I turned in his work for a photography assignment, I'd fail the course.


Tom

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
OhLook
Spiderwoman
Avatar
16,947 posts
Gallery: 70 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 4006
Joined Dec 2012
Location: California: SF Bay Area
     
Nov 07, 2015 11:16 |  #99

joedlh wrote in post #17775289 (external link)
OhLook wrote in post #17768186 (external link)
I think there's something peculiarly American about Eggleston's work . . .

I happen to live in the U.S. and my photos are nothing like Eggleston's and I don't like his stuff.

I didn't mean to imply, and I certainly didn't say, that every American photographer works in the same style or chooses subjects that fit the same theme. Any such generalization would be overreaching. I do think Eggleston's photos reflect aspects of this country's history and culture(s).


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.), shoo-in | IMAGE EDITING OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CyberDyneSystems
Admin (type T-2000)
Avatar
48,453 posts
Gallery: 84 photos
Likes: 4548
Joined Apr 2003
Location: Rhode Island USA
Post edited over 2 years ago by CyberDyneSystems. (2 edits in all)
     
Nov 07, 2015 12:30 |  #100

BigAl007 wrote in post #17774887 (external link)
Actually for an observer on earth, using earth as the fixed reference frame, then the sun will indeed "rise" in the sky. At least by the usually acceptable definition of the word rise, i.e move in an upwards direction.

This is important, because thanks to Special Relativity if C (speed of light in vacuum*) is a constant for all observers, in all frames of reference simultaneously, then either spatial dimensions, or time are not constant for all observers. Thanks to relatively small portable Cesium atomic clocks, and fast jets, it is actually quite easy these days to show that time is indeed different for observers in different reference frames.

*Actually it also doesn't matter that the speed of light varies in different media, the point is that speed will be constant in that media for all observers in all frames of reference.

Alan


LV Moose wrote in post #17774909 (external link)
There's no guarantee or proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. It could burn out, blow up, implode, whatever.

Or, the earth could be destroyed, in which case there's no sunrise, just the sun.

I think you guys missed my point entirely. Of course you don't have to get it, and I don't claim to be a great zen master or philosopher, but you could have at least tried a little harder ! lol

Bassat wrote in post #17775029 (external link)
Sunrise is a optical illusion based on a misconception.

this is getting closer young grasshopper :)


GEAR LIST
CDS' HOT LINKS
Jake Hegnauer Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
LV ­ Moose
Moose gets blamed for everything.
Avatar
23,232 posts
Gallery: 186 photos
Best ofs: 4
Likes: 3702
Joined Dec 2008
     
Nov 07, 2015 12:56 as a reply to  @ CyberDyneSystems's post |  #101

Oh, you mean the sun doesn't actually rise, the earth rotates so it comes into our view.

Well that's a more boring point to make;-)a. I liked the other direction we were heading.


Moose

Gear... Flickr (external link)...Macro (external link)...Hummingbirds (external link)
Aircraft (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Xyclopx
Goldmember
1,714 posts
Gallery: 33 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 201
Joined Jul 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
     
Nov 09, 2015 11:08 |  #102

joedlh wrote in post #17775289 (external link)
I happen to live in the U.S. and my photos are nothing like Eggleston's and I don't like his stuff. Academic categorizations fail in the instance. They just give one the faux self-perception of being one of the intelligentsia. Alas, fine arts teachers have to pad out the semester with something.

actually...........i looked briefly at your pictures and you look far more eggleston than you think.

you may not like his stuff, but like it or not i bet lots of the pictures you do like from today have some influence from him, maybe even far distantly, but it's there.

it's like jazz....... many people don't care for it, but everyone knows that much of modern music has learned from it.

....and thus, all this "intelligentsia" is completely spot on.


Dean Chiang (external link) | Facebook (external link) | Blog (external link) | Gear (external link)
My Photos (external link)
Instagram @xyclopx (external link) @feetandeyes (external link) @gastramour (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joedlh
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,246 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Likes: 387
Joined Dec 2007
Location: Long Island, NY, N. America, Sol III, Orion Spur, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Cluster, Laniakea.
Post edited over 2 years ago by joedlh.
     
Nov 09, 2015 13:56 |  #103

Xyclopx wrote in post #17777398 (external link)
actually...........i looked briefly at your pictures and you look far more eggleston than you think.

you may not like his stuff, but like it or not i bet lots of the pictures you do like from today have some influence from him, maybe even far distantly, but it's there.

Seriously? I trust that you didn't rely solely on the seven photos that are in my gallery on this forum. They are not quite representative. I hadn't heard of Eggleston before I responded in this thread. When I did search for his images -- to try to understand to what the original poster referred -- I didn't care for them. They mostly struck me as vacation snap shots. I would be grateful and maybe even amazed if you could point out what commonalities you have identified. Of course there are commonalities. But are they telling? Are they essential? Some of my photos have people in them. Well, I must have copied Eggleston because, gosh darn it, lots of his photos have people in them too and he was taking pictures before I was. Although I have to say that I am not fond of taking pictures of people walking away from me. So I guess he did not influence me in that way. I haven't studied photography or fine art formally. Consequently, I couldn't name my influences if asked. If there's any commonality, it's through a third party or perhaps that mythical "American photographer". I do recall being impressed by photos of cranes by a Japanese photographer back in in the 1970s. Nevertheless, I've never consciously sought to emulate anybody.

This just further reinforces my allusion to pedanticism and the padding out of semesters.

And here I thought that most of modern popular music derived from the 12-bar blues. I continue to live and learn.


Joe
Gear: Kodak Instamatic, Polaroid Swinger. Oh you meant gear now. :rolleyes:
http://photo.joedlh.ne​t (external link)
Editing ok

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Xyclopx
Goldmember
1,714 posts
Gallery: 33 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 201
Joined Jul 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
Post edited over 2 years ago by Xyclopx.
     
Nov 09, 2015 15:03 |  #104

joedlh wrote in post #17777562 (external link)
Seriously? I trust that you didn't rely solely on the seven photos that are in my gallery on this forum. They are not quite representative. I hadn't heard of Eggleston before I responded in this thread. When I did search for his images -- to try to understand to what the original poster referred -- I didn't care for them. They mostly struck me as vacation snap shots. I would be grateful and maybe even amazed if you could point out what commonalities you have identified.

k. yeah, seriously. so i looked at your website, but yes, briefly. but in general i get the feeling that you took pictures of what looked good to you. now............... i am trying not to insult or to judge, but trying my hardest i may fail k? eggleston's trademark is making art out of the common everyday. and to me, that's also what i see in your photographs--lots of pictures of stuff you found remarkable enough to post. but not necessarily beautiful in the way say, a painting would be. i see birds. kids. objects. flowers. just common stuff. sure.... your sense of aesthetics are completely different--maybe you like the light, or you like particular colors, or whatever, but that's the way you like your pictures to look. he liked his to look different. but............. you both share the same view--you took pictures of your visual memories. the difference is in what he finds remarkable vs what you do.

And here I thought that most of modern popular music derived from the 12-bar blues. I continue to live and learn.

i don't get this comment at all in how it helps your argument. but yes, modern music has derived from your "12-bar blues" too.


Dean Chiang (external link) | Facebook (external link) | Blog (external link) | Gear (external link)
My Photos (external link)
Instagram @xyclopx (external link) @feetandeyes (external link) @gastramour (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sjones
Goldmember
Avatar
2,208 posts
Likes: 150
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Post edited over 2 years ago by sjones.
     
Nov 09, 2015 17:05 |  #105

Don’t give a good goddamn what academia has to say about Eggleston; all I know is, as I previously stated, he is of my favorite photographers. Being relatively late to the hobby, I learned of him through his photos, not the other way around. No preparatory apotheosis.

He takes the snapshot; elevates it with a mastery of color possessed by few others; and effectively composes it to engage the visceral. Others may feel differently; that’s OK.

But having been around the American South in the mid-70s, Eggleston’s photos are remarkably reflective of the region’s feel during that time, and to some extent, to this day. So it is with reasonable accuracy to say that, in part, his work is “peculiarly American.” It doesn’t mean, of course, that American photography in general follows his style.

But yeah, one steps outside conventionality or breaks away from taking photos of the safely interesting then surely any success of such approach must be the sole function of portentous inveiglement or snake oil curators.

Other favorites include Lewis Baltz and Stephen Shore, photographers who take just snapshots that are nevertheless so superior to what I typically see, and in their way, the least pretentious photos one could take.


Summer 2017 (external link)
Eggleston's photography is superb. Deal with it!
It's the Photographer (external link) | God Loves Photoshop (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

12,979 views & 32 likes for this thread
Expertise vs pretention
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Stemmler9
416 guests, 293 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.