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Thread started 15 Nov 2015 (Sunday) 14:17
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Canon FF Mirrorless Competition Killer?

 
CyberDyneSystems
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Nov 17, 2015 09:46 |  #16

Agree Canon could serve itself well to take mirror-less more seriously.
I don't think a Full Frame Rebel DSLR would compete in the Mirrorless market at all.

An FF Rebel would need to be around $1K or less to sell. $2K is the 6D market, which already exists.


Not sure why "full frame" is a required part of the equation.
Fuji and Olympus don't seem to be hindered in this regard.


SL1 was sadly pretty much a failure. Selling point for that body has dropped to around $300.00 these days.

That said, an SL1 with a pancake is very piortable and offered decent IQ.
Problem with SL1 and any "rebel" solution IMHO is controls. I really don't like shooting my SL1 due to it's need to use menus to make most adjustments.

Take a page from the Fuji camp, the Xt1 etc. where all controls in this smaller than an SL1 body are easily located and adjusted. With a body like the Xt1, I simply can't take the plasticky menu driven SL1 seriously as any sort of Mirror-less competition.


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Nov 19, 2015 21:58 |  #17

Canon and Nikon both need to take mirrorless systems more seriously. Been in all (Canon, Nikon & Sony) camps and am not currently planning on leaving Sony, anytime soon.


  
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Nov 21, 2015 13:56 |  #18

Talley wrote in post #17784854 (external link)
Who thinks stuffing a 18MP 1dx sensor in a Canon T6s and keeping all the rest of the T6s features ...
I know I would buy one in a heartbeat. Price that sucker at 2k and be done with it.

The 1Dx sensor wouldn't fit so you can forget it.


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Nov 21, 2015 17:23 as a reply to  @ ebiggs's post |  #19

I don't know why everyone just assumes it won't fit. If they can stuff an APS-C into a tiny body like the SL1, they should be able to cram a FF sensor into a significantly smaller and lighter body than they currently offer in the 6D, even if it's not the exact T6s dimensions. I think that's what the OP was going for. As compact and light as you could possibly build around a FF sensor, while still keeping a good feature set.

That said, I'll stick to my opinion that the mirrorless market tends to lean toward APS-C size sensors overall, due to the corresponding reduction in lens size that can be accomplished. To me, it makes no sense to have a tiny little body with a huge FF lens still stuck to the front of it.


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Charlie
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Nov 21, 2015 19:32 as a reply to  @ Lyndön's post |  #20

the sensor *shouldnt* be an issue, however, the much larger mirror..... that may be an issue when you're dealing with a much smaller body like the SL1. The mirror's got to swing, so the available space has got to lesson quite a big compared to a mirrorless body, which has a short flange distance and not much to lose in terms of volume when fitted with a FF sensor.


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Nov 28, 2015 10:13 |  #21

I am happy with my XT1. Hoping XT2 has better sensor. You guys saw some of my comparison with Sony A7rII. I would love more MPs and higher ISO performance like on the Sony but for now I am quite happy with XT1, a lot more than with my FF 6d which to me was just blaa.

With Sony A7rII, the weight felt same as my 5dmk3 kit. I know Sony is lighter, smaller but overall a bag with 5dmk3, 35L, 85L seemed same size, weight as Sony with 35mm f1.8 and the 85mm f1.8. I like much smaller/lighter Fuji even though crop.


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Nov 28, 2015 10:19 |  #22

bobbyz wrote in post #17799265 (external link)
I am happy with my XT1. Hoping XT2 has better sensor. You guys saw some of my comparison with Sony A7rII. I would love more MPs and higher ISO performance like on the Sony but for now I am quite happy with XT1, a lot more than with my FF 6d which to me was just blaa.

With Sony A7rII, the weight felt same as my 5dmk3 kit. I know Sony is lighter, smaller but overall a bag with 5dmk3, 35L, 85L seemed same size, weight as Sony with 35mm f1.8 and the 85mm f1.8. I like much smaller/lighter Fuji even though crop.

The fuji sensors are certainly special. Love the colors they produce. I've often considering adding an x100t to my kit.


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Talley
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Nov 28, 2015 10:48 |  #23

I've already decided for 2016 to add a Fuji system to my current kit... give it about 6 months of having both before deciding any which way to swing. Without a doubt the Canon camera system will stay but will be a deciding factor of what lenses to keep. I already have an idea of what I think I will end up with. Canon kit w/ 120-300, 70-200, 35/85 and a fuji kit with the 16-55, 16, 35, 85 and the 10-24.


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penduboy
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Dec 27, 2015 19:21 |  #24

Mirrorless cameras are great for travel as long as you keep native small mirrorless lens as part of the kit. As soon as you want to attach your big Canon or Nikon glass the small form factor of mirrorless is defeated.

I know it is still lighter and smaller than carrying a dslr but I will take my full frame dslr with a nice kit lens over mirrorless unless I want to travel light with a mirrorless camera with a kit lens or a small prime attached to it.

This is my personal take on mirrorless as I can't find them comfortable in my big hands :-)

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bobbyz
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Dec 28, 2015 09:23 |  #25

penduboy wrote in post #17834461 (external link)
I know it is still lighter and smaller than carrying a dslr but I will take my full frame dslr with a nice kit lens over mirrorless unless I want to travel light with a mirrorless camera with a kit lens or a small prime attached to it.
Pendu

Honestly I will take XT1 over my 5dmk3. I have been doing it more and more and liking it. I did some comparisons with 5dmk3/85L vs XT1/56mm and they were so close and XT1 kit was so much smaller and lighter. I have small hands so not a problem that way. But then I never had problems with my 1dmk2 using 2 handed operation.


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Dec 28, 2015 11:14 |  #26

I think one of the problems with discussing the 'mirrorless' market is that the offerings are hardly homogeneous. The Sony A7, Canon M2, Fuji XT-1 etc all have less in common with each other than they do with some dSLRs in a lot of ways. It's kind of like how both the Canon 1DX and SL1 have reflex mirrors, but are otherwise kind of different cameras.

All that said, I keep watching the mirrorless market and while I'm not tempted enough by the current offerings, I can see some paths to a camera that might tempt me, if somebody ever puts together all the pieces. Basically I'd bite on something like a Sony A7 II but that could really shoot serious action like my 5D3 can. So far lens availability, tracking capability and limitations of EVF make all of the mirrorless options a step down for serious action.

Final thought, people think mirrorless systems are automatically smaller. But really all they offer over SLR is a shorter register distance. This does make for small lenses in the range of UWA to 50mm in primes, like the old rangefinder systems. But for the rest, your fast zooms and long telephotos are going to be just as big on a Sony A7 as they are on a 5D3.


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Charlie
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Dec 28, 2015 12:52 |  #27

JeffreyG wrote in post #17835046 (external link)
I think one of the problems with discussing the 'mirrorless' market is that the offerings are hardly homogeneous. The Sony A7, Canon M2, Fuji XT-1 etc all have less in common with each other than they do with some dSLRs in a lot of ways. It's kind of like how both the Canon 1DX and SL1 have reflex mirrors, but are otherwise kind of different cameras.

All that said, I keep watching the mirrorless market and while I'm not tempted enough by the current offerings, I can see some paths to a camera that might tempt me, if somebody ever puts together all the pieces. Basically I'd bite on something like a Sony A7 II but that could really shoot serious action like my 5D3 can. So far lens availability, tracking capability and limitations of EVF make all of the mirrorless options a step down for serious action.

Final thought, people think mirrorless systems are automatically smaller. But really all they offer over SLR is a shorter register distance. This does make for small lenses in the range of UWA to 50mm in primes, like the old rangefinder systems. But for the rest, your fast zooms and long telephotos are going to be just as big on a Sony A7 as they are on a 5D3.

tracking is a bit overrated IMO. I think a lot of DSLR users are oversold on the abilities of super fast tracking. For instance, a few years back, everyone was saying that a 7D was better for kids than a 5D2..... that was a big cruel joke to me. It's as if I'm waiting for every single moment my kid is sliding down the slide to capture. Tracking people is fairly easy, and considerably different than tracking birds in particular, so if you're an avid BIF specialist, you should certainly use a DSLR, otherwise, mirrorless can track most, if not all sports.


here's a huge crop from a high demanding sensor(a7rii), using face detect tracking (which works with adapted canon lenses as well)....


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JeffreyG
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Dec 28, 2015 13:00 |  #28

Charlie wrote in post #17835160 (external link)
tracking is a bit overrated IMO. I think a lot of DSLR users are oversold on the abilities of super fast tracking. For instance, a few years back, everyone was saying that a 7D was better for kids than a 5D2..... that was a big cruel joke to me. It's as if I'm waiting for every single moment my kid is sliding down the slide to capture. Tracking people is fairly easy, and considerably different than tracking birds in particular, so if you're an avid BIF specialist, you should certainly use a DSLR, otherwise, mirrorless can track most, if not all sports.

I shoot a lot of sports, volleyball, soccer, gymnastics, basketball, softball, baseball. swimming, and diving. Tracking is not overrated for me. I've used an old 5D which has a similar AF system to your old 5D2, and I've also used a 1D3, 1D4 and 5D3. I know what the difference between fair (5D) and really good is.

I've also tried shooting basketball with a Fuji XT-1 (hopeless) and a Sony A7R II (very bad). Compared to those two cameras I preferred my old 5D. I'm not looking to pick on you, but one shot of a kid on a swing is not convincing that a body is going to be acceptable for sports. Show me your top ten from a volleyball match.

I also disagree on BIF being the most challenging thing for an AF system. Birds can be tougher for a photographer to pick up and acquire, but tracking them is not actually a bigger challenge for an AF system than most sports. I think volleyball is probably about the toughest, unless you are really camped out on just one athlete and tracking that one person continuously.

Thinking about it, head on shots in diving are probably about the toughest thing I routinely ask a camera AF to do.

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Charlie
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Dec 28, 2015 13:37 as a reply to  @ JeffreyG's post |  #29

IMO, the A7rii would easily capture that. It has actual face tracking where canon does not, however if it couldnt work for you, then it couldnt work for you, not much to say really.

it comes down to whether you can work with a new system or not, and being a canon shooter for many years, the change may not work for you. And for the record with birds, once you start to fill the frame with them, they are by far the toughest to capture due to their relative size and agility. The fastest humans are no were near the agility and speed of a common sparrow. Think of a hummingbird, you can capture it in a frame, and lock on it, but no dslr in the world will keep up with it once it darts off, it's simply too fast. Instead, you just capture the moments of stillness. Humans cant move that fast in proportion to their size. A human can fill 1/10 of the frame and the AF and human tracking can keep them in the frame, where a humming bird filled at the same ratio can leave the frame quicker than you can react. It's no comparison, it's not even close.


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JeffreyG
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Dec 28, 2015 13:50 |  #30

Charlie wrote in post #17835195 (external link)
IMO, the A7rii would easily capture that. It has actual face tracking where canon does not

A lot of dives are inward or reverse (such as this one) and so face tracking is not helpful because the face only comes around to view as the time to shoot arrives. I don't know.....a lot of people who use mirrorless tell me that it's great for tracking and can shoot sports action super well, but I have not found convincing galleries of sports type work.

What I do have is the experience of trying out a couple different mirrorless cameras for sports. Perhaps it is like you say, and I just need to get used to the cameras. But I shot them both for a half game apiece and that wasn't how it felt to me. I felt that the A7R II was not very good for reasons related to the focus system behavior and the EVF.

It used to be that there were just phones, compacts and dSLRs. Now mirrorless fits in with further options. IMO these mirrorless cameras are attracting a lot of former dSLR users who find their performance meets their needs. But so far they don't quite do all the things dSLRs can do, and so some photographers will doubtless stick with dSLR.

What I'm waiting to see is if it is possible to reach the point where EVF and contrast detect AF can exactly replace OVF and phase detect. When they can, then I would expect the reflex mirror to go. But "It's good enough for me." or "The lag is so small you can barely tell." are not the same as 'exactly replace'.

If they don't match up, then maybe dSLR continues with some of the market and mirrorless continues with another part of the market. Like a modern rangefinder.


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