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Thread started 22 Jan 2016 (Friday) 14:43
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There are no "bad" modern camera; Doesnt mean picking one is actually easy

 
KenjiS
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Jan 22, 2016 14:43 |  #1

http://www.dpreview.co​m …e-choosing-one-any-easier (external link) Largely inspired by this

I can wholeheartedly relate to it in fact. Lately I've been trying to get a mirrorless camera to supplement or possibly replace my beloved workhorse 7D, If not for everything, then at least for some types of photography... to sum up, its been incredibly hard to do so.

I started at micro 4/3, its the oldest, the sensor tech has come a long ways, and the lens selection is pretty full, with a lot of fairly affordable primes

My journey started at the GX7, The image quality was awesome, but the viewfinder did not work for me, i had to cram my eye into it painfully to see, Sure it was big, it was bright, fairly accurate and it updated quickly, but it wasnt usable for me, and i kept having to use the rear screen to shoot. It cramped up my hand something terrible and I just couldn't live with it. But I can easily see how someone else could, Heck, I actually really had a soft spot for it, it was a glorious piece of design, very well made, and the IQ on it really was quite good, Files were crisp, had good DR, and high ISO had good detail retention vs noise. I also didnt get on with the 20mm f/1.7 for some reason, I shot a 28mm on my 7D so I expected a 40mm FOV would be lovely, instead i found it kind of awkward, Not quite wide, not quite telephoto... But it was a very lovely lens (it also autofocused slow as dirt however) the in body IS worked lovely too, even holding the camera out at odd angles, despite the reviews poo pooing it.

The next stop on my m4/3 journey was trying out the EM10 Mark II, along with the 25mm f/1.4 Summilux and the 60mm f/2.8 Macro, This was frought with several problems. The 25mm f/1.4 was excellent, superb, quick focusing, extremely lovely bokeh, colors and rendering. The 60mm however disappointed, Not optically, No, optically its a tackdriver, its sharp, contrasty, punchy right from f/2.8, Truly a super macro lens, but its focus by wire was the issue. Simply put, focusing it involved a lot of cranking..and cranking..and cranking..and getting nowhere, The autofocus system i found couldnt even be used to get the lens in "the ballpark" to shoot, limiter or not. I felt disconnected and frustrated trying to focus on anything and do any actual macro work with it. The focus in my case also hunted a lot, picked background subjects to focus on, or outright refused to go to the right spot when i wanted. Then came the other, somewhat odd issue, Olympus' better IBIS system actually didnt work well for me at all.. it seemed to do little for the 60mm macro, and i struggled to get anything good out of it. I'm someone who can easily break the reciprocal rule with unstabilized lenses on my 7D with no issue. Not so with the Olympus. I had better results turning the IBIS off completely in fact. I used electronic first curtain, like every review says, but no matter what I seemed to do, i could not get consistent results from it, I threw out a lot of images that were out of focus, or otherwise motion blurred and unusable. I came to the conclusion that there were two possibilities. Either i hold the camera too stable for the IBIS to be effective, or the fact is due to the light weight of the camera, every little shake or movement is translated into the camera tenfold andthe IBIS is working overtime to the point of it not making a difference if its on or off.

But are either bad cameras? No. Not really. the OMD fails in image quality(On the few -perfect- shots I managed to get) simply compared to the GX7. I felt the GX7's IQ was crisper, more detailed and sharp. the OMD somehow lacked this. But the OMD wasnt "bad" just different. I know for other people the IBIS works awesome, so its a me and the camera issue, not a camera issue. Heck the GX7's supposedly poor IBIS worked fine for me. So theres that.

Which comes back to a key point in the article. Both werent the right camera for me, but that does not make them actually bad cameras. After all I adore my 7D, which gets a lot of flak for its IQ, but I have some amazing images with my 7D with awesome detail and color. I've had it what.. 6 years now?

I did extensive research on both, read reviews and comparisons, Sure, a review here mentioned the 60mm macro's poor focus by wire in his opinion, but thats one man versus hundreds of others that love it, turns out I agreed with him (Funny enough he also agreed on Panasonic's IBIS working better for him. Go figure) But the lens isnt bad, Perhaps on a camera with a better AF system (the EM1 or the GX8, Upcoming PEN F) the 60mm Macro would be more lovely. Or to someone very used to focus by wire versus a direct couple like myself (For the record, my first lens was...oddly enough a 105mm Kiron Macro for my Nikon N70..Im quite used to MF Macro)

Which brings to another point, Getting opinions is hard sometimes.

Take for example a google search trying to compare the a6000 and the a7, Because you're genuinely curious on opinions from people who own both of the cameras whether its really worth it, or if one camera perhaps does one thing better than the other. Most people asking said question tend to get balked at and treated like they're clueless, Obviously Full Frame is always better! Or they're told buy the a6000 because they're obviously too new to understand the greatness of full frame.

Truthfully its been so long since I shot film I'm not sure I even remember.I can look at my old film shots sure, and they look good. But are they "better" than the 7D? I'm genuinely not sure, Colors yes, nothing beats velvia, Back then I bought fast lenses because of a love for that ISO 50 film. I learned to work with shallow depth of field because shooting, at most, ISO200 meant that yeah, you are shooting things wide open to get a usable image quite frequently. In fact going to digital gave me more freedom to actually stop my lenses down. I could explore the world of f/5.6 and f/8!

Basically I could go full frame and go "wow" or I could go full frame and go "Oh.. thats all?"....Plus I actually genuinely find the higher pixel density of crop cameras to be useful for wildlife shooting. Macros too to an extent.

Back to the question, its not as stupid as it sounds, If for example you compare the 24mm f/1.8 on the a6000 and the 35mm f/2.8 on the a7 you end up with almost identical practical real world performance, Theres no much to choose on field of view or depth of field, both lenses are exceptionally good glass on top of it, Theres only a stop or so in high ISO performance on the a7 over the a6000, but the 24mm is a stop and third faster which negates that in practical terms. The a6000 is lighter, has better AF and is more compact to round it out.

Of course the lens that "makes" the A7 is not the 35mm f/2.8.. its the 55 f/1.8. Now there.. there I see the justification. But then again that starts pushing the pricepoint way, way beyond the a6000, and at that point why not just buy a 6D instead? Oh right, because I was trying to get something smaller and easier to carry. Thats why.

Even then I'm perhaps prepared to pay...but its more "at this point the 7D gets replaced" and then I look at the lens system. No 24-105, No uber wildlife zoom. Two essential lenses for me, Two lenses I know, from experience, that I use heavily and i want for my system. I could convert the epic 70-400 II I suppose. But by that point i can also just buy a D7200 and a 200-500. Or keep the 7D and throw a 150-600 on it. Not to mention converting that 70-400 gives up any form of stabilization.


Consider it all food for thought. Or a rant. Probubly more the second ;) This has been racking my brain for over a month now after all


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Jan 22, 2016 15:44 |  #2

Is your goal to get a smaller overall package? You can shrink the body down quite substantially, but still use your lenses if you sell the 7D and go with the SL1. The size difference is amazing once you hold one over the other, and you still get a good viewfinder, a rear touch LCD, and the same sensor as the 7D. You lose the AF.

There are many many good choices out there, and it gets decreasingly difficult to figure out what system will fit the needs these days. :)


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Jan 22, 2016 17:51 |  #3

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17868743 (external link)
Is your goal to get a smaller overall package? You can shrink the body down quite substantially, but still use your lenses if you sell the 7D and go with the SL1. The size difference is amazing once you hold one over the other, and you still get a good viewfinder, a rear touch LCD, and the same sensor as the 7D. You lose the AF.

There are many many good choices out there, and it gets decreasingly difficult to figure out what system will fit the needs these days. :)

I tried the SL1 in store, the grip murdered my hands unfortunately :( the viewfinder was also quite hard for me to see through (and I'd still have to buy a lens on top of it either way, I lack the fast 35-50 fov lens i want) Tracking AF isnt important in this application, i just want something decently accurate and quick to respond.. Neither mirrorless quite did that for me. SL1 looks to be similar to my 30D so it should be sufficient mind you

I have a lot of issues with my joints and such, Gripping a "tiny" camera or my smartphone is very hard on me. I kind of need a "bulge" type of grip to hang onto..

Really the goal isnt less weight when im using it, Using it im fine with the weight of my 7D, I appreciate it sometimes in fact, even with something like a 100-400 bolted on it i dont mind.. Its when i am out and about, and want a camera to take pictures of food at a restaurant or quick snapshots that the 7D just isnt really the right tool, its too heavy and bulky to carry in my messenger bag, it takes too long to pull out and get ready to shoot too. Plus the bloody mode dial gets bumped out of whack constantly. Ive also found my 24-35mm fast options lacking (Though the 35mm f/2 IS looks like a solid choice, And part of me does consider the 24L or Sigma 24 f/1.4 as well, but we're back to big heavy options) and it does tend to draw more attention than id like.

Which is how Im back down to the A7 and a6000. The way I see it the A7 has a nice advantage of giving me a full frame option for when speed isnt necessary, while still being small and light. The caveat is native lenses are expensive, and if im going to take the dive into the FF pool then i cant help but feel replacing the 7D with something like a 5D III would be better... The a6000 is cheaper, the 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar is lovely (and focuses quite close, Which seems very useful for the food/table shots and such) my worry is Sony is gonna ditch APS-C at this rate and it seems the users of high end stuff like the 24mm f/1.8 are dwindling. Basically I feel i could grab the a6000, 16-70 and the 24 f/1.8 and have a nice small compact system to go in my messenger bag with me everywhere. But if in 6 months Sony kills APS-C off completely im left with some probubly worthless gear. An in-between option is the 28/2 instead of the 24mm f/1.8, Which isnt a bad option, but i give up one thing i loved on the 24/1.8 (The 1:4 repro ratio)

I dont want to return anything else, and im tearing my hair out trying to make a decision.


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Post edited over 7 years ago by TeamSpeed. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 22, 2016 21:38 |  #4

Would the Canon M3 be too small as well, with not too much to grip? I believe you have to always use liveview though, or buy the EVF later.


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Jan 22, 2016 23:02 |  #5

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17869081 (external link)
Would the Canon M3 be too small as well, with not too much to grip? I believe you have to always use liveview though, or buy the EVF later.

The couple times i tried to use the M3 i couldnt seem to figure out how to get it to actually take pictures... but i didnt spend much time with it.. I really wanted a viewfinder tho and the Canon one is an accessory that makes the package cost the same as the Sony

Wish they made the 22 f/2 in a EF-S mount.. It looks like a cracking great lens

I cant help but feel there has to be another option.. Maybe i should forget saving weight


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Jan 23, 2016 07:57 |  #6

I'd quite like a small system camera for the times when I don't want a SLR camera. What I would like though is that it had a decent range of lenses, up to about the 135mm FoV on35mm, and most important of all an OPTICAL viewfinder. There is a system that matches this, that I know about, but the cost is a bit of an issue. Is there anything that else other than the Leica M?

Alan


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Jan 23, 2016 08:30 |  #7

Heya,

If you just want a simple camera for when you're out & about, there are tons of good cameras that are decent in low light.

I use the EOS-M and 22mm F2 STM for my "walk around" and "restaurant" type stuff.

I don't mind the lack of a view finder. It makes it even easier for other people to use the camera to get a shot that actually might include me in it for once when we're out. I can shoot at ISO 12,800 without even thinking about it, at F2 and a shutter of 1/40s and not worry about blurry messes. Has a focus assist lamp to help grab focus. Has face tracking in live view, I don't even have to look at the back, and it grabs my 2 year old's face at the table when we're eating. An APS-C sensor in a small camera is a big deal if you care about low light.

Now, I wouldn't use it as my primary camera. It's just not robust enough for that. But for taking it into the restaurant, theme park, around the house, etc, I adore it. It does the job and is super inexpensive for the quality you can grab with it.

I'd love to get the new EOS-M 3 just for the wifi and flip screen. But, I just don't need those features enough to care at this time, and still stick with my EOS-M 1.

I really like the Fuji system and if I were going to a compact mirrorless as a primary system, I'd go there.

***************

I can hand my EOS-M to someone else across the table, and just ask them to point it at my and my family. Even though I set it for low light, it's facial tracking and low light quality is pretty good in a dark restaurant.

ISO 800 just around the house, like nap time (quiet shutter, so it doesn't wake them up unlike a dSLR):

IMAGE: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5791/23776441610_a9dc2bdfc2_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Ce3t​Js  (external link) IMG_9355 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

ISO 1600 just around the house.

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/478/19485983438_986ccd0848_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/vFUK​ZG  (external link) IMG_7934 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

ISO 3200 in a dark restaurant.

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3839/14818997606_7b8d5efa03_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/ozve​GJ  (external link) DPP_0681 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3844/14838883811_f16b7c582e_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/oBga​bk  (external link) DPP_0688 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

ISO 3200 at bath time.

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/629/21898992656_01f8cd6325_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/zn94​yU  (external link) IMG_8695 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

ISO 6400 in a dark play place (bouncing big).

IMAGE: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/22759909097_5323ed1950_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/AFdu​2P  (external link) IMG_9172 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

ISO 12,800 in the same dark play play while kids are playing, we got sharp photos, cellphone parents got blurry mess and flashes of LED.

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/686/22858489610_77f6bd0ba5_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/APVJ​zQ  (external link) IMG_9135 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

And my standard lighting equipment works with the EOS-M so I can put a speedlite on the shelf or on the ground and get awesome bounced light to support the M capturing whatever.

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/672/23033443631_7b9a7a8179_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/B6oq​jt  (external link) IMG_9101 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

***************

Food for thought.

Very best,

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Jan 23, 2016 20:51 |  #8

BigAl007 wrote in post #17869449 (external link)
I'd quite like a small system camera for the times when I don't want a SLR camera. What I would like though is that it had a decent range of lenses, up to about the 135mm FoV on35mm, and most important of all an OPTICAL viewfinder. There is a system that matches this, that I know about, but the cost is a bit of an issue. Is there anything that else other than the Leica M?

Alan

Alan, Check out Fuji, they have a couple Mirrorless cameras with a neat hybrid viewfinder, it can switch between Optical like a Leica M or a EVF like a normal mirrorless, Good lens selection on their cameras as well. A little more dear than say, an A6000 but it would get you what you wish for less than a Leica. Really nice sensor too.

I gave the M3 a try and its just too tiny for my hands.. I think going too "small and light" doesnt work with my hands.. My hands hurt more after 5 minutes playing with the M3 than they do after 2 hours working with the 7D in the freezing cold. I also felt a huge lag between pointing the camera at something and pulling the trigger to shoot that i didnt like, Id probubly take the a6000 over it. Oh I also had issues composing and shooting, my natural reflex with such a thing is to try to bring it to my eye..

I'm actually sincerely leaning more towards grabbing a 6D or a D600/D610 at this point.. I keep trying to pull the trigger on the A7 and it just fills me with massive anxiety...I WANT to love the small size and form factor, but the lenses are stupidly expensive, I even got to try the adapter with my Sigma 50mm f/1.4 in the store on it and it just makes the combo unwieldy...and the AF did not work at all. I think part of the reason is id be dumping a lot into the Sony.. Or at least it feels that way compared to the Canon or Nikon stuff, and its not like it can really ever replace my SLR gear for wildlife shooting.. I've looked into it, theres maybe 1 or 2 Sony folks who make it work, and a bunch of others who said "Eh" to it due to the poor tracking AF (Not to mention lack of lenses and if you dont get the A7II you have NO stabilization with A-mount glass)

Canon I already have a nice set of lenses that will get new life on the 6D. The Nikon on the other hand gives me access to some great solid older lenses, the Micro-Nikkor 60mm AF-D for instance and some lenses like the 200-500 VR that I would genuinely love to own.

Still havnt 100% decided but im just struggling to "get" with any mirrorless...


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Jan 26, 2016 11:36 |  #9

Yours photography hasn't changed from last time I checked on you.
6D with high and clean ISO for small apertures and http://www.tamron.ca …00mm-f5-6-3-di-vc-usd-sp/ (external link) could make the diffrence.

As long as camera has decent size of the sensor, to me it doesn't matter mirror or less. But everything with after APS-C smaller sizes fails on me even at Flickr pages.


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Jan 26, 2016 17:28 |  #10

Just picking up on a couple of combos discussed above:

I have M3 with 22 f2, and it's a nice little portable combo. I hear you on the size, and you've tried it and didn't like, so moving on . . . .

I also have a 6D, and it's a (relatively) light FF body, certainly no bigger than your 7D. Excellent lowlight performance. I have no issues using mine for 'action' (nothing professional). Paired with the 35 f2 IS, it makes a great walkaround combination - light and fast, with IS to boot.

I often think about those Sony A7 bodies, then I look at the size of the lenses, and can't really see enough benefit in moving over from Canon FF to Sony FF.


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KenjiS
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Jan 27, 2016 03:15 |  #11

So to catch everything up since my last post, I ended up reordering a GX7, The price was significantly better, I paid around $500 for the GX7 and the 20mm f/1.7. This will be my "go everywhere" camera, Always with me, always in my bag, kind of deal. To compare, the first time i did this combo was about TWICE that price(And the OM-D setup was closer to three times that). For THAT kind of money it wasnt good enough, For about $500? I can live with its limitations a lot easier. I really liked the GX7's files, They do get quite close to my 7D in terms of resolution and color. The GX7 isnt a replacement for my main camera, its merely another tool i have, think of it as a smartphone supplement, I have a very good capable camera with a solid lens on me at all times if something happens. Heck it even goes in my pocket.

It also doesnt hurt me enough to stop me from getting a upgrade for my 7D if i so desire(After all i was about to drop $2000 on the Sony), So now im sorta mulling the 6D vs D600 vs D610. I see nice sides to all three... The biggest fear on the 6D is actually the 11pt AF, im quite used to my 7D's very solid AF performance, the D600 has more points spread out better which could be more useful, more chance of a focus point falling where i want that way, but i also have to say except the 30D my Canon bodies have been very good focusers


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Jan 30, 2016 18:02 |  #12

KenjiS wrote in post #17868871 (external link)
I tried the SL1 in store, the grip murdered my hands unfortunately :( the viewfinder was also quite hard for me to see through (and I'd still have to buy a lens on top of it either way, I lack the fast 35-50 fov lens i want) Tracking AF isnt important in this application, i just want something decently accurate and quick to respond.. Neither mirrorless quite did that for me. SL1 looks to be similar to my 30D so it should be sufficient mind you

I have a lot of issues with my joints and such, Gripping a "tiny" camera or my smartphone is very hard on me. I kind of need a "bulge" type of grip to hang onto..

Really the goal isnt less weight when im using it, Using it im fine with the weight of my 7D, I appreciate it sometimes in fact, even with something like a 100-400 bolted on it i dont mind.. Its when i am out and about, and want a camera to take pictures of food at a restaurant or quick snapshots that the 7D just isnt really the right tool, its too heavy and bulky to carry in my messenger bag, it takes too long to pull out and get ready to shoot too. Plus the bloody mode dial gets bumped out of whack constantly. Ive also found my 24-35mm fast options lacking (Though the 35mm f/2 IS looks like a solid choice, And part of me does consider the 24L or Sigma 24 f/1.4 as well, but we're back to big heavy options) and it does tend to draw more attention than id like.

Which is how Im back down to the A7 and a6000. The way I see it the A7 has a nice advantage of giving me a full frame option for when speed isnt necessary, while still being small and light. The caveat is native lenses are expensive, and if im going to take the dive into the FF pool then i cant help but feel replacing the 7D with something like a 5D III would be better... The a6000 is cheaper, the 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar is lovely (and focuses quite close, Which seems very useful for the food/table shots and such) my worry is Sony is gonna ditch APS-C at this rate and it seems the users of high end stuff like the 24mm f/1.8 are dwindling. Basically I feel i could grab the a6000, 16-70 and the 24 f/1.8 and have a nice small compact system to go in my messenger bag with me everywhere. But if in 6 months Sony kills APS-C off completely im left with some probubly worthless gear. An in-between option is the 28/2 instead of the 24mm f/1.8, Which isnt a bad option, but i give up one thing i loved on the 24/1.8 (The 1:4 repro ratio)

I dont want to return anything else, and im tearing my hair out trying to make a decision.

you know you can still use the sony full frame "FE" lenses on the a6000, they use the same mount.




  
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Jan 30, 2016 19:37 |  #13

itsray wrote in post #17879586 (external link)
you know you can still use the sony full frame "FE" lenses on the a6000, they use the same mount.

Of course, but the FF FE lenses are really expensive and a good chunk more expensive, the price difference on a new a6000 and used A7 isnt huge on top of it, so its really the lenses breaking/making said system

Overall I sunk away from the Sony however, the lens system wont work for me, The FF lenses have terrible repro ratio which doesnt suit me, and most of the lenses i want lose the size advantage.

I got the GX7 (Two technically, first was defective and they exchanged it rapidly for me, B&H is awesome like that) and im enjoying it somewhat, Few problems still, the viewfinder is STILL not the best thing out there and I still have issues with stuff like this:

IMAGE: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1656/24704344755_1e29502e33_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/DD3e​1x  (external link) Gems of Twilight (external link) by Trevor H (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1585/24610845691_8366ce058d_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/DuM1​ZH  (external link) Frozen (external link) by Trevor H (external link), on Flickr

With the autofocus, it just refuses to focus on small things in front of the frame, if theres twigs or branches around it gets confused, focuses on the wrong area and overall i have to resort to manual focus, something i find annoying. Even using the precision mode (And yes obviously im using single point and such, it just refuses to focus) Any SLR I've owned has never really had an issue with such things. Which is why its very bothersome.

But im trying to give it a good try this time

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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited over 7 years ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Jan 30, 2016 20:07 |  #14

.

KenjiS wrote in post #17868647 (external link)
There are no "bad" modern camera

I cannot agree with the statement that there are no bad modern cameras.

My folks came out to visit me this past summer. Their point & shoot failed, so I took them to Walmart to get a suitable replacement. The parameters were that it had to be easy to use and cost less than $100 total for camera, batteries, memory card, and sales tax.

There were lots of cameras that fit those parameters. But every single one of them was "bad" in that they could not be relied upon to get the shot on a consistent basis.
Shutter lag was horrendous on all models fitting the parameters.
Battery life was terrible on the one we chose.
Noise grain was horrendous in all photos where the lighting / conditions were less than ideal (when viewed at any size larger than 8" by 10").
I do think that there are lots of bad cameras out there, cameras whose shortcomings keep people from getting some of the pictures they want to take.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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There are no "bad" modern camera; Doesnt mean picking one is actually easy
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