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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 25 Jan 2016 (Monday) 09:35
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Upgrade from Rebel XS

 
christopher2222
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Jan 26, 2016 09:36 as a reply to  @ post 17873464 |  #16

Ok I'll have to give some serious thought to lenses now.

re:anti-aliasing filter - rabbit hole yes indeed as they say, if it's not broken don't fix it. I won't go there.

I am a loyal Canon user with the exception of a broken fuji film point and shoot which fell and lens now won't retract or zoom. I did find on average that Nikon lenses are slightly more expensive than their Canon counterparts so I think I'll stick to Canon.

I think, haven't solidified the thought, I'm going to search out a good lens and stick with my Rebel XS, if the money were there I'd probably go for the 7dMKii.


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Jan 26, 2016 20:20 |  #17

you will be really surprised by the difference a really good lens will make to your photography, compared to a new body. I would still rather shoot my 300D if it meant using really quality glass, over shooting a 7DII using only average glass.

Oh and when it comes to the AA filter you really don't want to start considering removing it on a low resolution sensor, unless you only plan on using low quality lenses. The Canon engineers don't just fit them for fun, or because they reduce the sharpness of your images pointlessly. Personally I would want to see the resolution of an APS-C camera get to around 30 MP before removing the AA filter, that's 77 MP for a 35mm format sensor. Anything below that resolution is IMO to close to the resolution limits of the latest quality lenses. Although the 20/50 MP bodies are just about matching the resolution of the lenses, you still need the AA filter if you want to maintain the colour information, the colour resolution of most sensors, which are the ones using a Bayer type Colour Filter Array, have a colour resolution of only half the monochromatic resolution.

The problem with aliasing artifacts is that once you have recorded them it is totally impossible to remove them using a digital filter. The only way to ensure you have no aliasing artifacts is to filter them out at the analogue stage before the light hits the sensor.

Alan


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christopher2222
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Jan 26, 2016 22:34 as a reply to  @ BigAl007's post |  #18

One thing that is pushing me to upgrade the XS would be the RAW 1.3 fps. Not the best for amateur sports.

Now the T6s is much better but the 70D is better (however there is an 80D on the horizon) but also the T5i is only slightly worse than the T6s and the T5 marginally worse yet but I would save a bundle if maybe I went that upgrade route.


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Jan 27, 2016 08:38 |  #19

christopher2222 wrote in post #17874399 (external link)
One thing that is pushing me to upgrade the XS would be the RAW 1.3 fps. Not the best for amateur sports.

Now the T6s is much better but the 70D is better (however there is an 80D on the horizon) but also the T5i is only slightly worse than the T6s and the T5 marginally worse yet but I would save a bundle if maybe I went that upgrade route.

If you need a kit that is good enough to shoot indoor amateur sports your choices seem to be:

1. Get a better body and a better lens (f/1.8 prime or a f/2.8 zoom)
2. Get a better body and rent a lens for the event
3. Keep your current body, shoot jpeg for sports to get higher fps ... and get a better lens (f/1.8 prime or a f/2.8 zoom)

I wouldn't be shooting sports at ISO 12,800 with a 70D or T6s and expect very good results.


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christopher2222
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Jan 27, 2016 10:28 as a reply to  @ Bob_A's post |  #20

So I have a few options to decide from. I think I will get a bit more use out of my XS first.

I would max out my current body shooting jpeg's and getting a better lens. 3fps isn't that far from the 5fps a T5i can shoot at. Also if I'm close enough to the action the 10Mp my XS has compared to the 18 on T5i or 24 on T6i isn't going to be that big of a difference, especially if I'm printing 4x6 unless I'm thinking of poster size prints like 30x20. At 300dpi high resolution grade the maximum size I should print is 12x9. Not being professional, 200dpi is definitely ok I could go a little higher to 18x13. To get the resolution and size of a 30x20 I would definitely need the 24Mp and could probably get away with 18. That's not to say I couldn't print a 30x20 with my 10Mp. Post editing and doubling the pixels in photoshop might let me sneak away with a good quality photo of a larger print.

Just my 2 cents. Being out of the game for a few years, I have noticed Canon's IQ hasn't much improved as much as the added fluff has. Electronic leveller (I think that's for people who don't use the eyepiece - don't people use the cross hairs in there?) HD video (cameras are becoming full fledged video cameras now - doesn't that take away from real camera development?) I suppose digital has allowed cameras to do just that - and they also want to compete with the iphone market. People who move from an iphone to a camera want/need those video capabilities - just the way things trend, why not have one thing that does it all. I'd like a camera that takes pictures extremely well but I think that development has slowed in favor of adding video.


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Bob_A
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Jan 27, 2016 19:01 |  #21

christopher2222 wrote in post #17874905 (external link)
So I have a few options to decide from. I think I will get a bit more use out of my XS first.

I would max out my current body shooting jpeg's and getting a better lens. 3fps isn't that far from the 5fps a T5i can shoot at. Also if I'm close enough to the action the 10Mp my XS has compared to the 18 on T5i or 24 on T6i isn't going to be that big of a difference, especially if I'm printing 4x6 unless I'm thinking of poster size prints like 30x20. At 300dpi high resolution grade the maximum size I should print is 12x9. Not being professional, 200dpi is definitely ok I could go a little higher to 18x13. To get the resolution and size of a 30x20 I would definitely need the 24Mp and could probably get away with 18. That's not to say I couldn't print a 30x20 with my 10Mp. Post editing and doubling the pixels in photoshop might let me sneak away with a good quality photo of a larger print.

Just my 2 cents. Being out of the game for a few years, I have noticed Canon's IQ hasn't much improved as much as the added fluff has. Electronic leveller (I think that's for people who don't use the eyepiece - don't people use the cross hairs in there?) HD video (cameras are becoming full fledged video cameras now - doesn't that take away from real camera development?) I suppose digital has allowed cameras to do just that - and they also want to compete with the iphone market. People who move from an iphone to a camera want/need those video capabilities - just the way things trend, why not have one thing that does it all. I'd like a camera that takes pictures extremely well but I think that development has slowed in favor of adding video.


Cameras have definitely improved, including more options and better sensors. Of all of the Canon crop sensors you've mentioned in this thread the 70D is probably the best performer with regards to high ISO results. Also, while all of those cameras will do much, much better than your XS in low light, they just don't cut it at ISO 12,800. And frankly some gymnasiums are pretty dim. I used to shoot from the stands at an indoor pool designed for the Commonwealth games (reasonably good lighting) and still had to use ISO 3200 to 4000 at f/2.8 to get a decent shutter-speed and correct exposure. School gymnasiums can be dimmer.

If I were in your shoes, and wanted to stick with Canon, I'd look at buying a gently used 70D and 85mm f/1.8. You'll get more megapixels, about the best low light performance of any Canon crop body since 2013, better AF tracking, and a much better viewfinder (pentaprism instead of pentamirror).


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Jan 27, 2016 19:55 as a reply to  @ Bob_A's post |  #22

I was thinking of the 70D but it's up there in price, brand new wise . I thought the IQ of the T6s was better than the 70D. I'd like brand new. Everywhere seems to be out of stock except the Canon store.


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Jan 27, 2016 21:15 |  #23

christopher2222 wrote in post #17875585 (external link)
I was thinking of the 70D but it's up there in price, brand new wise . I thought the IQ of the T6s was better than the 70D. I'd like brand new. Everywhere seems to be out of stock except the Canon store.

The T6i and T6s have slightly better dynamic range than the 70D, but the 70D does a tiny bit better at high ISO. The following aren't perfect comparisons but should give you a bit of an idea (from DP Review and DXOMark):


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Jan 27, 2016 21:27 |  #24

Did you check www.thecamerastore.com (external link) (Calgary), McBain Camera (Edmonton) or Vistek?


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Jan 27, 2016 22:46 as a reply to  @ Bob_A's post |  #25

I'd like a 70D, but I see the price is $1199, it was about $250 cheaper before christmas, so I'll wait for the price to come down again.

I looked at the color depth and dynamic range differences and it was minimal, the dynamic range differed only by .1 and the color depth was a little more but probably not enough to notice a whole lot of difference.

The pictures you show it's very hard to notice any differences around the eyes, looking at the thin strand of hair off to the left, I can start to see some differences, except I can't find the location of that comparison.


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Jan 27, 2016 23:15 |  #26

christopher2222 wrote in post #17875780 (external link)
I'd like a 70D, but I see the price is $1199, it was about $250 cheaper before christmas, so I'll wait for the price to come down again.

I looked at the color depth and dynamic range differences and it was minimal, the dynamic range differed only by .1 and the color depth was a little more but probably not enough to notice a whole lot of difference.

The pictures you show it's very hard to notice any differences around the eyes, looking at the thin strand of hair off to the left, I can start to see some differences, except I can't find the location of that comparison.

I see a fair bit bit more "blotchiness" in the 760D image. Neither camera gives excellent results at ISO 6400 though (but usable for small prints and with a bit of noise reduction), and both are pretty bad at 12,800, which is why fast glass is still required.


There are a few advantages for the 70D:

- Pentaprism versus pentamirror (this is a big advantage in my opinion)
- 1/8000 s max shutter-speed
- 7 fps vs 5 for the 760D
- Better water and dust resistance
- 1/250s x-sync
- AF-ON button (I couldn't stand shooting sports without configuring a camera to back-button focusing)

I hope you can find a deal ... or maybe the price of oil will suddenly go up so the Canadian dollar will be back on par with US (fat chance that's happening soon :) ).


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Jan 27, 2016 23:33 as a reply to  @ Bob_A's post |  #27

ok found it the studio shot comparison tool. One thing I found Canon has trouble with is the bleeding of fine detail on red colors - the 70D has trouble discerning the indidual threads on the red thread spool - probably reducing the color in the camera might bring it out but the T6s can pick out the detail. I would enjoy the 7fps. I might wait, lots of thinking and testing to do.


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Jan 28, 2016 00:56 |  #28

BigAl007 wrote in post #17874260 (external link)
you will be really surprised by the difference a really good lens will make to your photography, compared to a new body. I would still rather shoot my 300D if it meant using really quality glass, over shooting a 7DII using only average glass.

Oh and when it comes to the AA filter you really don't want to start considering removing it on a low resolution sensor, unless you only plan on using low quality lenses. The Canon engineers don't just fit them for fun, or because they reduce the sharpness of your images pointlessly. Personally I would want to see the resolution of an APS-C camera get to around 30 MP before removing the AA filter, that's 77 MP for a 35mm format sensor. Anything below that resolution is IMO to close to the resolution limits of the latest quality lenses. Although the 20/50 MP bodies are just about matching the resolution of the lenses, you still need the AA filter if you want to maintain the colour information, the colour resolution of most sensors, which are the ones using a Bayer type Colour Filter Array, have a colour resolution of only half the monochromatic resolution.

The problem with aliasing artifacts is that once you have recorded them it is totally impossible to remove them using a digital filter. The only way to ensure you have no aliasing artifacts is to filter them out at the analogue stage before the light hits the sensor.

Alan

Great write up for us simpletons. Thanks Alan!


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Jan 28, 2016 05:07 |  #29

christopher2222 wrote in post #17875780 (external link)
I'd like a 70D, but I see the price is $1199, it was about $250 cheaper before christmas, so I'll wait for the price to come down again.

I looked at the color depth and dynamic range differences and it was minimal, the dynamic range differed only by .1 and the color depth was a little more but probably not enough to notice a whole lot of difference.

The pictures you show it's very hard to notice any differences around the eyes, looking at the thin strand of hair off to the left, I can start to see some differences, except I can't find the location of that comparison.

Heya,

Canon refurb is where to buy it.

Or, here's a deal: LINK (external link) (ebay).

Very best,


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Jan 28, 2016 07:47 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #30

Thanks for the deal. That works out to $913 Canadian for me (pre Christmas deal prices). I will think about it.


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