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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 18 Mar 2016 (Friday) 14:35
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6d vs 70d/7d II Autofocus

 
dan84
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Mar 18, 2016 14:35 |  #1

Hi,

For those that own or have used both camera's i'm interested in knowing if the 70d/7d II offers a big benefit over the 6d for slow moving targets (e.g toddlers/kids). I know the 7d II has a superior system for sports/wildlife but will there be any difference in accuracy when shooting around ISO 1600 for family shots? I'm only interested in the outer focus points on single point selection, I know the 6d already offers a v good centre focus point.

Thanks




  
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Mar 18, 2016 14:54 |  #2

There shouldnt be, the only thing I hate about my 7DMII is the high iso performance. 6,400 is the highest Im comfortable with it going. My friend has a 6D which I borrowed to shoot a show once and 25,600 was usable. Blew my mind, wish my 7D could go that high!

Just using the center point I didnt see much improvement using the 7DM2.

Now when it comes to tracking, thats entirely different. The 7D blows the 6D out of the water.

It doesnt sound like you use that so the 6D will be a better choice.

I dont have a full frame canon but I do have a full frame Sony and I always reach for that over my 7D when shooting portaits.

One thing you havent mentioned are what lenses you will be using. Some operate much better in low light than other. Invest in glass over body any day.


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dan84
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Mar 18, 2016 15:54 as a reply to  @ maverick75's post |  #3

Thanks for the input. I'm not really interested in tracking, just need the af for family shots (kids ISO 400-1600, occasionally higher) my other interests are macro and landscape where I use mf anyway. I was holding off to see what the 80d brings (and still will) but early examples seem to show not much improvement in noise levels so rethinking the 6d again my only concern was that i'll need to use the centre point and recompose, which will throw focus off when shooting at 1.8 or use the outer focus points.

Lenses include: Canon 50 1.8 stm, Canon 85 1.8, Canon 70-200 F4 L, Canon 100 2.8 L, and 2 other EFS lenses, which id have to eventually swap for a 16-35 f4.




  
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neacail
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Mar 18, 2016 16:54 |  #4

You're looking at three very different cameras. I just had a look at your gallery, and I'm guessing that you're looking to upgrade a 60D? Where does the 60D fall flat for you?

I just replaced my 70D with a 5D III, and I also have a 6D. I've never used the 7D (I or II) beyond playing with one for a few minutes.

The outer focus points on the 6D are rubbish. The 70D outer points are okay. The 70D was my ice hockey camera until I replaced it. It did an admirable job of the task I employed it for. The 7D or 7D II focus points are better, in my understanding.

The 6D isn't a great all-around camera. Where it excels it is spectacular, but I certainly wouldn't want it as my only body. Would you be keeping the 60D?


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neacail
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Mar 18, 2016 17:00 |  #5

dan84 wrote in post #17939876 (external link)
I was holding off to see what the 80d brings (and still will) but early examples seem to show not much improvement in noise levels so rethinking the 6d again my only concern was that i'll need to use the centre point and recompose, which will throw focus off when shooting at 1.8 or use the outer focus points.

I don't focus and recompose if I'm using the 6D with a wide aperture. I crop in post if I don't want my subject centred.


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dan84
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Mar 18, 2016 17:15 as a reply to  @ neacail's post |  #6

Yes looking to upgrade the 60d, tbh i'd be looking more at the 80d rather than 70d/7d II but since that isn't released yet, mentioned the others for af comparison. The 60d is a fantastic camera but where it falls flat for me is the following:

- Too much noise past ISO 800.
- Improved IQ in newer sensors
- I find the af misses a lot in low light (ISO 1000 +)

Other features but less important are small buffer, no video af, no microadjust and fps. When you say the 6d outer focus points are rubbish, is that both moving and static subjects? e.g full body portrait in a low light. I would keep the 60d due to the fact I wouldn't get much on the used market, but I don't want to carry 2 bodies so would just be as a back if anything went wrong or perhaps if I ever needed more reach. Cropping defeats the point a bit as you'll be throwing away a lot of pixels if the focus is near the edge of the frame?




  
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neacail
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Mar 18, 2016 17:44 |  #7

dan84 wrote in post #17939964 (external link)
Yes looking to upgrade the 60d, tbh i'd be looking more at the 80d rather than 70d/7d II but since that isn't released yet, mentioned the others for af comparison. The 60d is a fantastic camera but where it falls flat for me is the following:

- Too much noise past ISO 800.
- Improved IQ in newer sensors
- I find the af misses a lot in low light (ISO 1000 +)

Other features but less important are small buffer, no video af, no microadjust and fps. When you say the 6d outer focus points are rubbish, is that both moving and static subjects? e.g full body portrait in a low light. I would keep the 60d due to the fact I wouldn't get much on the used market, but I don't want to carry 2 bodies so would just be as a back if anything went wrong or perhaps if I ever needed more reach. Cropping defeats the point a bit as you'll be throwing away a lot of pixels if the focus is near the edge of the frame?

I find the outer focus points on the 6D to be so unreliable that I won't use them for a static, brightly lit subject, with a wide aperture. With a narrower aperture I find that focus is more often acceptable simply due to the wider DOF. Even with MFA'd lenses the outer focus points are unreliable.

The centre focus point is phenomenal and will achieve focus in very low light.

I do a LOT of cropping on wide aperture 6D images. I throw a lot of pixels away, but the IQ of what i'm left with is awesome up to ISO 12800 (with NR).

Now, don't get me wrong . . . I love my 6D. I'm packing up my kit right now for some landscape work, and it is the 6D that is going with me on the trek, not the 5D3. It is lightweight, small, easy to pack, has spectacular IQ, and is the perfect companion to my 21mm manual focus Zeiss Distagon.

The 6D would certainly be a solution to your first two reasons for wanting to upgrade. But, if you're not using the centre AF point, you're still going to get a lot of AF misses in low light. The 60D has nine cross type focus points, and the 6D only has the one: the centre point which is the only one that will focus at -3EV. The 6D's autofocus system is less sophisticated than the 60D's.


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AlanU
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Mar 19, 2016 04:22 |  #8

Dan,

Focus recompose is a bad habit....which I use often :)

I never really had that much problems shooting my 5dmk2 (AF system is quite similar to the 6d).

At one point I was a very bad pixel peeper and I still didn't feel my keeper rate was greatly effected by "focus / recompose".

Image quality wise there is no question the 6d will be a solid performer in providing fantastic files.

Apparently the Canon 80D has adopted the mk1 version of the 1DX AF system. I certainly would wait to see what real users think about that camera. I'm assuming the Image quality will be very good and as expected from a crop sensor. I'm actually contemplating on an 80d simply for it's dual pixel technology and "built in" 1.6 TC :) I'll also be expanding on different manufacturer bodies for different applications.

I've been using micro 4/3 camera's for family documentation and found the IQ (in good light) to be easily on par with my former 50D and even quite close to my 5dc. In fact my M43 gear performs better in high ISO's vs my older Canon gear. I think I'd be very happy with a newer Canon prosumer crop body both for family and professional documentation.

If you weren't a canon guy (and not looking for stellar video performance) I'd say for the price of a Fuji XE2 or XT10 there is much more value in those bodies and a very good selection of fast lenses (under $1000). IMO the image quality of the fuji glass $ is much nicer than similar glass in the canon world $$ These two bodies would be a big step in IQ and high iso performance than a 60D and I'll dare to say 7dmk2 as well. However the 6D with good glass will provide much better image quality and higher ISO performance with a semi crippled AF system.

If Canon does not mess up with the AF accuracy in the 80D I'd say that's a universal body to do both video and stills documentation. For a cheaper price I'd imagine the Sony A6300 would perform better in the ISO department and produce excellent files. 80D would beat it in video because of dual pixel technology but still using "behind the times" 1080 HD.

I guess my point is that there is compromises in every camera body. There's a reason why you see more and more folks having different types of camera systems to expand their tools for photography.

This day and age we seem to be wanting the package deal both in image quality, AF performance and files that hold up at least in high ISO's in the 6400 range. Seems the 6D can provide clean files at high ISO's but the flagship crop sensor 7dmk2 would struggle.

For the price I'd simply buy a 6d and learn the limitations of it's AF system. Simply add an 80D down the road for the crop factor and accurate non hunting AF in video. I'd strongly suggest trade in your 60D because it will collect dust after you compare files of the 6d. Later on don't be surprised that you will want a small form factor camera like an A7 series, fuji or M43 as you run around chasing your kids or for daily photography.


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Mar 20, 2016 01:54 |  #9

I do not have a 70D but I have the other 2 so here is what I have found:

The 7D mk ii has lightning AF and tracking once you tune the AF to your style and subject types/motion. For me, it will grab near-impossible shots if I can keep the focus point on the subject. I can't use the assist points on single subjects, because whatever it is in my shooting style lets it lock on the background too often. I worked on this for months and only solved it by going to single point. The center point is magic though. I generally restrict myself to ISO1600 so I have a little room to recover shadows without making the noise worse. YMMV, but in Lightroom I get great results.

When I got my 6D, I intended it to take over portrait duties from my 5D mk iii so I could use it for sports and events. But I just had to try shooting a sports event so I'd know its limits. To my surprise and delight, the same settings and shooting style which worked on my 7D also did for the 6D. I got some amazing stuff that I would have bet the camera was not capable of. I felt totally comfortable shooting and tracking fast moving subjects in very dim light and never felt that the camera was struggling to get focus. Of course I was using center point only, but that works for me. Will I use it regularly for sports? Of course not, but if my other camera breaks on a shoot, I will swap lenses and move forward with confidence. It's way better at autofocus than its reputation indicates as long as you understand its limits.


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dan84
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Mar 20, 2016 05:57 as a reply to  @ GregDunn's post |  #10

Thanks for the additional replies, i've been contemplating the upgrade for a while now, so many different views makes it hard :) Renting would prob be the best solution, but prices are expensive here in the uk.

From what I have gathered when using the 6d in mediocre light you need to use the centre AF point which leaves you with 2 options?

a. Focus and recompose - But if you are doing this then the focal plane changes throwing away some of the sharpness, is this still an advantage over an aps-c sensor without having to recompose?
b. Crop the image - Unless I am missing something, if you are cropping the image then aren't you throwing away the advantage of the bigger sensor? (assuming you are at base ISO, so no noise advantage)

I don't really have any needs for a good tracking system, infact my 60d is fine for that in good light. What I do need is a reliable and accurate focus system for portraits in mediocre light, which is where the 60d lets me down. I think the other plus for me going to a 6d would be my inside lenses would change from tamron 17-50 non vc/canon 50mm 1.8 stm to the 50mm 1.8stm/Canon 85mm 1.8/canon 100mm 2.8 l/canon 70-200 f4, which is a better selection imo. Completely agree about the comments on Fuji/Sony, if I was starting thresh then i'm not sure I would be going with Canon but after investing lots in their lenses it's not really worth making the switch. In a few years I prob will pick a more portable camera, I do have the old S95 but for now i'm enjoying the larger DSLR's.

On another note, am I correct in thinking the following:

a: Using the same aperture/lens/framing on ff vs aps-c the ff would give more blur because you are closer to the subject but would also include more background? e.g more of a tree in the frame.
b. If I had no need to go wider than 1.8 on aps-c then I could match this by using 2.8 on FF in effect giving much better results because the lens has been stopped down?




  
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Mar 20, 2016 08:38 |  #11

dan84 wrote in post #17941520 (external link)
a. Focus and recompose - But if you are doing this then the focal plane changes throwing away some of the sharpness, is this still an advantage over an aps-c sensor without having to recompose?
b. Crop the image - Unless I am missing something, if you are cropping the image then aren't you throwing away the advantage of the bigger sensor? (assuming you are at base ISO, so no noise advantage)

a) I would say no. But, I'm a sharpness freak.
b) Yes and no. You're throwing away one of the advantages of a bigger sensor. You'll still get better colour depth and better dynamic range than if you were using the 60D.

dan84 wrote in post #17941520 (external link)
a: Using the same aperture/lens/framing on ff vs aps-c the ff would give more blur because you are closer to the subject but would also include more background? e.g more of a tree in the frame.
b. If I had no need to go wider than 1.8 on aps-c then I could match this by using 2.8 on FF in effect giving much better results because the lens has been stopped down?

Sorry. I can't answer these two questions with any authority. Hopefully someone else can. :)


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Mar 20, 2016 09:35 |  #12

All of the mentioned cameras can and will do all of the things you've listed...
kids on the go, wildlife, landscapes, macro...

The difference is where your preferences are, and what is most important to you.

If you want to shoot those kids later in life in their fast moving sports, the 70D/7DII is the go to.
same if you want to shoot macro allot

If image quality is number one above all other, and you shoot landscapes, then the 6D is probably the way to go. As long as you are ok with center point for games then you are fine.

My shooting style has evolved to where I use those out AF points, and my 5D2 drives me crazy.

As far as image quality past 1600 ISO... are you printing bigger than 4x6 8x10? because here is one at 12,800 iso, and while you might see a difference in an 8x10 print, I think most people wouldn't see it or even care. This is processed in LR 5.7 from raw.


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Mar 20, 2016 09:54 |  #13

dan84 wrote in post #17941520 (external link)
Thanks for the additional replies, i've been contemplating the upgrade for a while now, so many different views makes it hard :) Renting would prob be the best solution, but prices are expensive here in the uk.

From what I have gathered when using the 6d in mediocre light you need to use the centre AF point which leaves you with 2 options?

a. Focus and recompose - But if you are doing this then the focal plane changes throwing away some of the sharpness, is this still an advantage over an aps-c sensor without having to recompose?
b. Crop the image - Unless I am missing something, if you are cropping the image then aren't you throwing away the advantage of the bigger sensor? (assuming you are at base ISO, so no noise advantage)

I don't really have any needs for a good tracking system, infact my 60d is fine for that in good light. What I do need is a reliable and accurate focus system for portraits in mediocre light, which is where the 60d lets me down. I think the other plus for me going to a 6d would be my inside lenses would change from tamron 17-50 non vc/canon 50mm 1.8 stm to the 50mm 1.8stm/Canon 85mm 1.8/canon 100mm 2.8 l/canon 70-200 f4, which is a better selection imo. Completely agree about the comments on Fuji/Sony, if I was starting thresh then i'm not sure I would be going with Canon but after investing lots in their lenses it's not really worth making the switch. In a few years I prob will pick a more portable camera, I do have the old S95 but for now i'm enjoying the larger DSLR's.

On another note, am I correct in thinking the following:

a: Using the same aperture/lens/framing on ff vs aps-c the ff would give more blur because you are closer to the subject but would also include more background? e.g more of a tree in the frame.
b. If I had no need to go wider than 1.8 on aps-c then I could match this by using 2.8 on FF in effect giving much better results because the lens has been stopped down?

a: The need for bg blur will depend on what you want to do with your portrait photography. No doubt fast primes and FF is the way to go for that particular 'look' but if this is for your own use, then I'd say it's overkill. JMHO.
b: a Yes and No type of answer. Here is what happens to me... I can stay at a lower iso on my crop body with a wider aperture than I can for a FF due to DOF... For *Me* DOF is really important in my horse portraits. This would also hold true for your macro photography... you'll have to stop down the FF quite a bit to get the same DOF in your crop, and then you'll trade off iso to keep the right shutter speed.

While I really like the shallow dof a f2.0 50mm can give on my 5D2, the same camera drives me crazy with portraits when I use flash with it.. I like longer lenses, and my technique isn't great and 1/125 shutter on my 200mm trying to balance ambient and flash will yield blur in the results *for Me*. I can use 1/250 all day long with my 7D2/200mm and my quality is not at issue. So then you get into issues like, do I really want to carry around a tripod for portraits or  ???? Trade offs for everything. If you are doing natural light only, then this may not be an issue for you.. and you go back to what is most important *For You*.


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Mar 20, 2016 17:11 as a reply to  @ ksbal's post |  #14

Ah see that's the difficult one, I have too many preferences and it's hard to decide which to go for. Perhaps a 6d sensor in a 60d body with 7d mark II ergonomics for less than 1,000 :)

The kids are still toddlers so won't be doing sports for a while, tbh the 60d image quality is very good at lower ISO's and whilst improvements in IQ are always important I could probably manage without huge ISO improvements IF I had a reliable autofocus system. Doesn't need to be good at tracking or even that many points, just reliable and accurate in low light. Although I think that's one of the problems, I know the 7d/70d has a 'better' af system but im not sure how much better it is for my needs, is every focus point likely to be on par with the 6d's central one? Previously my main interests were macro and landscapes but I think over the next few years that will take a back seat to family photo's due to lack of time.

I often use ISO 100-1600 but rarely go past that. I print lots of A4 size family shots, my landscape photo's are normally around 20x16 but at base ISO so have always turned out well. Macro's I never print. That's an excellent shot, impressive for ISO 12800 but tbh it's a lot more noise than I would be happy with. Outside i'll almost always use natural light for macro and portraits, but inside I'll normally bounce a flash of the ceiling or occasionally shoot through an umbrella.




  
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Mar 20, 2016 20:20 as a reply to  @ dan84's post |  #15

Not sure why you aren't interested in tracking. I have kids aged 3,6,&9 and they never hold still so tracking is very important.

If you want FF with good AF on the outer points, then get a 5D3 or wait for a 6D2. Waiting for the 5D4 or 5Dx or whatever they call the 5D3 replacement will make the 5D3 price drop. Still I would rather take a crop image at ISO 200 using a flash than a ISO 25K on FF with natural light so what are your expectations?


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