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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 18 Mar 2016 (Friday) 14:35
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6d vs 70d/7d II Autofocus

 
FarmerTed1971
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Mar 20, 2016 21:47 |  #16

Buy a 6D. I'm sure you'll be just fine.


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Mar 20, 2016 22:49 |  #17

dan84 wrote in post #17941520 (external link)
From what I have gathered when using the 6d in mediocre light you need to use the centre AF point which leaves you with 2 options?

a. Focus and recompose - But if you are doing this then the focal plane changes throwing away some of the sharpness, is this still an advantage over an aps-c sensor without having to recompose?
b. Crop the image - Unless I am missing something, if you are cropping the image then aren't you throwing away the advantage of the bigger sensor? (assuming you are at base ISO, so no noise advantage)

There's no doubt the 6D peripheral focus points are much lower performance than the center one - or the typical 7D2 focus point. As for sharpness, the pixel density on the 7D2 sensor is much higher than the 6D sensor, so you will definitely lose resolution if you crop the 6D to a similar FOV. "Sharpness" is a perceptual quantity; some people find the FF sensor to look sharper, even though the resolution is actually less. It's actually a combination of acutance, color detail and aberrations which determine sharpness, so it's really hard to compare two cameras without more specifics such as the lens, lighting, subject, print size, etc.

Incidentally, "focus and recompose" should NOT end up with the focused point being on something different from the featured subject. The whole goal of focus/recompose is to ensure that the subject is in focus while the framing may put it somewhere else than the center. You may need to pivot the camera on a tripod to ensure that the actual distance to the subject doesn't change, thereby affecting the focus. What I sometimes do is shoot a little wider and then crop the image asymmetrically. Yes, that also loses resolution but unless I'm making large prints it's not generally a problem with a 20+ MP sensor.


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Mar 22, 2016 09:28 as a reply to  @ post 17942197 |  #18

7D2/70D .. I can only speak for my 7D2, but the af nails it anywhere in decent to low light.. it only fails on me in this particular venue if I'm trying to put the af point on a dark/black horse and servo it... but I doubt the 6D would either.

I think the 70D will do much of what you need it to, and if you know how to bounce flash when appropriate then there really isn't a reason to FF IMHO. The files of the 7D2 are a bit better, but not enough to recomend it over personal use unless you have specific needs that are only addressed with that camera.

Rent or borrow one and try it out, play with the files and I think you'll like it.


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Mar 22, 2016 10:00 |  #19

ksbal wrote in post #17944269 (external link)
7D2/70D .. I can only speak for my 7D2, but the af nails it anywhere in decent to low light.. it only fails on me in this particular venue if I'm trying to put the af point on a dark/black horse and servo it... but I doubt the 6D would either.

I think the 70D will do much of what you need it to, and if you know how to bounce flash when appropriate then there really isn't a reason to FF IMHO. The files of the 7D2 are a bit better, but not enough to recomend it over personal use unless you have specific needs that are only addressed with that camera.

Rent or borrow one and try it out, play with the files and I think you'll like it.

The 70D is great camera, but I was only comfortable going up to ISO 3200. At 6400 there was just too much noise for my taste and the images were a lot of work. If I was in the market to add a crop body back into my kit, the results you and TeamSpeed are getting at 12800 would sway me to the 7D2 (and I'd get the great focus system to boot). I know 12800 is a lot of work in post, but 6400 should be a breeze.

Not only is focussing in low light important, but getting useable images at high ISO is another important part of that equation. The 6D and the 7D2 (and the 5D3 I replaced my 70D with) all do very well at high ISO. 6400 on either the 6D or the 7D2 will produce photographs that don't require a whole lot of effort in the way noise reduction, providing at least a full stop over the 70D.

Being that the OP already has a 60D . . . I don't know if the 70D will offer enough of an improvement to make it a worthwhile investment: especially as the 60D will be held on to.

80D raw files are now available for download: http://www.imaging-resource.com …canon-80d/canon-80dA7.HTM (external link)

I haven't played with them, but the 80D might be an option, too.


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Mar 22, 2016 11:50 |  #20

I went from a 60D to a 6D and I was very happy with the ISO and IQ improvements. The center-point is outstanding, and it tracks well enough to shoot just about anything at an enthusiast level.

One of the great things about switching from a 60D to a 6D is it is almost exactly the same body and layout--not much to learn or get familiar with.


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TeamSpeed
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Mar 22, 2016 12:19 |  #21

I am routinely shooting high ISO with the 7D2, and I am finding the same kind of behavior as I did the 7D. The more I shoot the camera at high ISO, the better it seems to get over time. I have no idea if there is some of electronic burn in or what, but I can shoot JPG and with some minor work, get files that work.

The office is using my shots for fan appreciation posters here at the next game, and they are all at 6400, 10K and 12800. The camera is cleaner now than when I got it at the start of the season. I have changed nothing really, I set up C3 as my go-to stored settings, and they have virtually been unchanged since the start.

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AlanU
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Mar 22, 2016 12:45 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #22

Teamspeed,

The light environment you were in is not a challenging as some of your past 7D mk1 photos. I think a 70d with that same type of situation would provide similar noise characteristics. 1/2000 SS indicates you wanted to stop action but plenty of headroom still. Even if you dropped the ISO I still think you'd have plenty of shutter speed to stop action.

Even a slow focusing 6d would be able to hammer some decent actuations in that sports arena. Just not on par with a 1dx, 5d3 or 7dmk2. I bet for the average Joe the 6d would still do awesome with center focus (like most sports shooters use) but lack quantity in actuations. However the 6d would be cleaner.

Different priorities will make individuals happy. I think most mom/dad soccer moms would not complain having killer clean 6d photos of their kids on the field even though the 6d doesn't rattle off actuations like a machine gun ;)


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TeamSpeed
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Post edited over 3 years ago by TeamSpeed. (8 edits in all)
     
Mar 22, 2016 13:29 |  #23

All comparisons show the 7D2 to be a bit better ISO-wise, and low light shadow noise is quite a bit better. Also, the 7D2 Autofocus is better/faster than the 70D. The amount of configuration options and speed is nearly 1D quality. I shoot with off-center AF points in both orientations.

I have experimented with shutter speeds, and I really need 1/1600 or 1/2000th. The lower speeds don't give me the detail I want during the fast breaks and slams. I don't control the ISO on the 7D2. I shoot in manual mode and set the shutter and aperture I want, then I set auto ISO with 1/3 stop EC. This has single handily changed how I shoot this event.

I am not saying the 6D or 70D isn't up to the task of what others might shoot, but the 7D2 guarantees me the flexibility and performance I need, with no worries from any part of the game.

I am only showing some samples of what the 7D2 can do at higher ISOs as a comparison. There is virtually no post processing other than a crop and a few minor steps of post, like a very tiny NR, some contrast, and USM. I am not even using the actions I had developed in the past for the 7D2 or 5D3, simply because I am not using the raw files any more, just the JPG out of camera.


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Post edited over 3 years ago by ksbal. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 23, 2016 08:59 as a reply to  @ neacail's post |  #24

The 80D files look VERY attractive, and if you do lift the shadows quite a bit, then you definitely should wait for that camera. I was checking out the difference on dp review, and I'm impressed.

Below is a picture at 12,800 iso off the 7d2 a couple weeks ago. (click to see what detail is there, the compressed photo presented doesn't) I wanted to address the processing factor.. this is done in LR 5.7 only. Team speed has a very different workflow for his, but I think my results are pretty good for a one program output. Raw imported > LR > jpg.

This file is not pretty at 100%, and it is a 75% crop of the original image, but, it prints 4x6 and even 8x10 just fine, if with a bit of grain for the larger print.


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The other interesting thing of note, here is a link to 6D vs 7D2 comparison (external link)

Performance between the two isn't that far off really, more noise (that LR would take care of easily) and a smidge bit of detail loss on the 7D2. But not yards and yards of difference. Close enough that I'll take better AF, FPS, and reach vs slightly better image quality.

But OP indicated they do want outer points to be really good.. So ...

According to DP review, at 3200, correctly exposed, it looks like a toss up to me on if the 7D2 or 80D performs better.. certainly the 80D should lift better if underexposed, and should have great AF on outer points vs 6D so if they can wait, the 80D may be the best deal, but 70D may do just fine with a bit of bounce flash and they can have it now for a great price. Properly exposing the sensor on the 70D/7D2 makes a big difference in how well the file behaves in processing. So there is that as well. OP has to decide what they feel are the most important features, if they are willing to tell the camera what to do, and how much post processing they are willing to learn if they really need 12,800 iso (or whatever).

Personally, I wish the 6DII with good outer af would come out NOW - that would be my second/portrait body in a heart beat, but I don't think I'll be trading off the 7D2 anytime soon, unless Canon does the same body with an improved sensor (more detail, less grain at high iso, the DR for me is fine. )

JMHO. YMMV.

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Mar 24, 2016 01:05 |  #25

FYI, B&H is now shipping pre-orders on the 80D. My CC was just billed yesterday and the order status is ready to ship on Friday (unfortunately Thursday is Purim).


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ksbal
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Mar 24, 2016 08:02 as a reply to  @ bumpintheroad's post |  #26

Can't wait to here what you think of it, I'm hearing good things about the 80D af.

My GAS is kicking in ... argh!


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FarmerTed1971
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Mar 24, 2016 09:58 |  #27

ProPhoto Supply in Portland will have some 80D's Friday.


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Mar 24, 2016 15:20 |  #28

FEChariot wrote in post #17942397 (external link)
Not sure why you aren't interested in tracking. I have kids aged 3,6,&9 and they never hold still so tracking is very important.

If you want FF with good AF on the outer points, then get a 5D3 or wait for a 6D2. Waiting for the 5D4 or 5Dx or whatever they call the 5D3 replacement will make the 5D3 price drop. Still I would rather take a crop image at ISO 200 using a flash than a ISO 25K on FF with natural light so what are your expectations?

Well yes I do want tracking in that respect, but I think most camera's can track slow moving kids on the centre point? When I say I don't need tracking, I was referring more to fast sports or BIF.

The 5d III looks a great camera, as i'm sure the 6d II will be when it is released but price is an issue. I don't make money from photography therefore don't really want to spend 2k on a body. When I bounce flash it's normally on low power at ISO 400-800 but your right I don't want to be shooting FF at ISO 25k either. where it would come in handy is in darker locations where I want to use a longer lens and there's either nothing to bounce flash against or you are too far from the subject (I know you can setup light stands, but if i'm shooting outside or not at home I don't really want to lug them around). However I don't really need higher than ISO 1600-2000, so if the later aps-c camera's are a stop or so better than the 60d then I may not need the ISO advantage of FF.

neacail wrote in post #17944304 (external link)
The 70D is great camera, but I was only comfortable going up to ISO 3200. At 6400 there was just too much noise for my taste and the images were a lot of work. If I was in the market to add a crop body back into my kit, the results you and TeamSpeed are getting at 12800 would sway me to the 7D2 (and I'd get the great focus system to boot). I know 12800 is a lot of work in post, but 6400 should be a breeze.

Not only is focussing in low light important, but getting useable images at high ISO is another important part of that equation. The 6D and the 7D2 (and the 5D3 I replaced my 70D with) all do very well at high ISO. 6400 on either the 6D or the 7D2 will produce photographs that don't require a whole lot of effort in the way noise reduction, providing at least a full stop over the 70D.

Being that the OP already has a 60D . . . I don't know if the 70D will offer enough of an improvement to make it a worthwhile investment: especially as the 60D will be held on to.

80D raw files are now available for download: http://www.imaging-resource.com …canon-80d/canon-80dA7.HTM (external link)

I haven't played with them, but the 80D might be an option, too.

Thanks, i've played with the 80d raw files and tbh I would probably pick one up over the 7d II but since it isn't released (or wasn't) I was comparing against the 70d/7d II as they should have close comparable AF against the 6d? There's lots of excitement over the new sensor technology on other forums, it looks to me that there is a massive step forward in dynamic range but the high ISO files do look a bit noisier than the 7d II. Although if high ISO is still an improvement over the 60d and it has a accurate af system then it may be the best all round option. Hopefully there should be some more reviews available soon.




  
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6d vs 70d/7d II Autofocus
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