Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 25 Mar 2016 (Friday) 01:54
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Will Otus 85 retain its value?

 
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 526
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Mar 29, 2016 13:31 |  #91

I view DXOMark as something of academic interest, but don't usually include it in the websites I consult prior to any lens purchase. It's not that useful on its own, particularly for a less experienced photographer who might end up obsessing over the differences in a particular metric between two lenses, when it has no practical bearing on real-world applications, such as rejecting a portrait lens contender for poor corner sharpness, or a lens you mean to use for landscapes for being a bit soft wide open.

The OP is right to look at examples on Flickr and 500px. What people are actually doing with a lens is a far better measure of its performance. After that, reviews from the-digital-picture, photozone.de, digitalrev, tony northrup, fro, etc... all usually have some interesting bits that go beyond the specs and end results and consider things like build, ease-of-use, real-world gotchas, etc. that you don't get from numbers and charts.


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
icor1031
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
883 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 227
Joined Jan 2015
Post edited over 3 years ago by icor1031. (5 edits in all)
     
Mar 29, 2016 13:31 as a reply to  @ post 17953518 |  #92

I believe test data is more important than 'practical use,' which makes comparisons near impossible in some aspects.

What I didn't know is that the data may have been collected improperly or may be completely wrong. (i.e., IDK if DXO mentions field curvature.)

However, I want to point out that the data from slrgear, the-digital-picture, and dxomark, approximately follow each other (in what I've seen, so far.).

DXO shows otus 55 as bettering canon 85 1.2 even @ 5.6, but both sites show them to be pretty sharp, and to have similar changes based on f/.

Although I don't only use those; I always also search for 'bokeh,' which AFAIK is never measured, only compared visually. And lately I look for real examples, esp. now that I know about color cast on some lenses.

(No hyperbole now, though I point out that my use was relative and not absolute.)


(2) Canon 6D || Zeiss Sonnar 135/2 || Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 || Sigma 85/1.4 ART || Helios 44-2 58/2 || Sigma 50/1.4 Art || Canon 24/2.8 || Rokinon 14/2.8 || (2) Eg-S Focusing Screen
Ideal Portraits (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
icor1031
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
883 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 227
Joined Jan 2015
Post edited over 3 years ago by icor1031. (4 edits in all)
     
Mar 29, 2016 13:35 |  #93

absplastic wrote in post #17953535 (external link)
The OP is right to look at examples on Flickr and 500px. What people are actually doing with a lens is a far better measure of its performance. After that, reviews from the-digital-picture, photozone.de, digitalrev, tony northrup, fro, etc... all usually have some interesting bits that go beyond the specs and end results and consider things like build, ease-of-use, real-world gotchas, etc. that you don't get from numbers and charts.

And matt granger, I watched his 85mm otus videos. ;)
I don't recommend him though, not with the nude pictures in his videos on his wall. Highly inappropriate / not professional, esp. without a warning for minors.


(2) Canon 6D || Zeiss Sonnar 135/2 || Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 || Sigma 85/1.4 ART || Helios 44-2 58/2 || Sigma 50/1.4 Art || Canon 24/2.8 || Rokinon 14/2.8 || (2) Eg-S Focusing Screen
Ideal Portraits (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
7,973 posts
Gallery: 542 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1600
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
     
Mar 29, 2016 13:46 |  #94

The biggest problem with ALL of the review sites on the web, with the exception of information posted by Lens rentals, is that none of them actually measure and test LENSES. They test lens/camera combinations which is not the same thing at all. For example there is really only one way to test lens resolution and that is to put it on a dedicated optical test bench. The problem with that is they can cost upwards of $50K. The same really applies to most other metrics used when testing lenses.

Once you start testing lenses on a digital camera body the digital sensor creates hard limits beyond which it is impossible to test. It is simply impossible to compare results of tests done using two different cameras with different sensors.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
icor1031
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
883 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 227
Joined Jan 2015
Post edited over 3 years ago by icor1031. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 29, 2016 13:49 |  #95

BigAl007 wrote in post #17953549 (external link)
The biggest problem with ALL of the review sites on the web, with the exception of information posted by Lens rentals, is that none of them actually measure and test LENSES. They test lens/camera combinations which is not the same thing at all. For example there is really only one way to test lens resolution and that is to put it on a dedicated optical test bench. The problem with that is they can cost upwards of $50K. The same really applies to most other metrics used when testing lenses.

Once you start testing lenses on a digital camera body the digital sensor creates hard limits beyond which it is impossible to test. It is simply impossible to compare results of tests done using two different cameras with different sensors.

Alan

Thanks for the input and reference.

https://www.lensrental​s.com …85mm-f1-4-and-1-2-primes/ (external link)

And otus: https://www.lensrental​s.com …iss-85mm-otus-mtf-charts/ (external link)

It looks like they only test wide open? (excuse me if this was a stupid question.)


(2) Canon 6D || Zeiss Sonnar 135/2 || Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 || Sigma 85/1.4 ART || Helios 44-2 58/2 || Sigma 50/1.4 Art || Canon 24/2.8 || Rokinon 14/2.8 || (2) Eg-S Focusing Screen
Ideal Portraits (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 526
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
Post edited over 3 years ago by absplastic.
     
Mar 29, 2016 15:06 |  #96

BigAl007 wrote in post #17953549 (external link)
The biggest problem with ALL of the review sites on the web, with the exception of information posted by Lens rentals, is that none of them actually measure and test LENSES. They test lens/camera combinations which is not the same thing at all.

I don't see this as a problem, in fact it's why I value user reviews so much more heavily than test sites. We (photographers) are not design engineers, we don't need white-paper datasheets on individual components. I would argue that knowing the numbers can often work against the photographer, discouraging them from trying equipment they might love. MTF curves of the 85L don't look great at f/1.2, but find one person willing to give up their 85L, or not shoot it regularly at f/1.2 :-)

How a lens performs on an optical test bench isn't useful to me because I have to put it on either a 6D or 5D to actually use it. Lens performance curves are academic and easily misinterpreted. I'm on the more technical end of the photographer spectrum (I'm an EE, not an artist by trade), and I know rigorous testing has its place in the engineering process, but I don't think reading charts and comparing numbers is that useful to majority end users.


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
15,622 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 5678
Joined Sep 2007
     
Mar 29, 2016 17:29 |  #97

BigAl007 wrote in post #17953549 (external link)
The biggest problem with ALL of the review sites on the web, with the exception of information posted by Lens rentals, is that none of them actually measure and test LENSES. They test lens/camera combinations which is not the same thing at all. For example there is really only one way to test lens resolution and that is to put it on a dedicated optical test bench. The problem with that is they can cost upwards of $50K. The same really applies to most other metrics used when testing lenses.

Once you start testing lenses on a digital camera body the digital sensor creates hard limits beyond which it is impossible to test. It is simply impossible to compare results of tests done using two different cameras with different sensors.

Alan

I dont agree at all. The sensor cover matters, and body/lens combo matters more than theory. It's just like a car's theoretical horsepower vs wheel hp. Lensrental has the sigma 70-200 sharper than the tamron 70-200, and pretty much no review agrees with this. Same thing with the leica reviews, havent seen a single leica summicron and sigma art vs otus.

in theory, it's good, however sensor stack and AA filter change real world results drastically.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Jarvis ­ Creative ­ Studios
Goldmember
Avatar
2,405 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 845
Joined Aug 2013
Location: Houston, Texas
     
Mar 29, 2016 18:06 |  #98

absplastic wrote in post #17953535 (external link)
The OP is right to look at examples on Flickr and 500px. What people are actually doing with a lens is a far better measure of its performance. After that, reviews from the-digital-picture, photozone.de, digitalrev, tony northrup, fro, etc... all usually have some interesting bits that go beyond the specs and end results and consider things like build, ease-of-use, real-world gotchas, etc. that you don't get from numbers and charts.

And once again someone forgot Ken Rockwell. SMH ;-)a


WEBSITE (external link)
flickr (external link)
Sony HX90V || Sony RX100V || Sony a6500 || Sony a9 || Sony E 10-18mm f/4 OSS || Sony FE 24-70 f/2.8 GM || Sony Sonnar T* FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA || Sony Sonnar T* FE 55mm f1.8 ZA || Sony FE 70-200 f/2.8 GM OSS || Godox speedlights and strobes

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
absplastic
Goldmember
Avatar
1,643 posts
Gallery: 40 photos
Likes: 526
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Mar 29, 2016 18:14 |  #99

Jarvis Creative Studios wrote in post #17953827 (external link)
And once again someone forgot Ken Rockwell. SMH ;-)a

Ha ha, you know I thought about it though ;-P Just didn't want to open that can of worms again.


5DSR, 6D, 16-35/4L IS, 85L II, 100L macro, Sigma 150-600C
SL1, 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
My (mostly) Fashion and Portraiture Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link) (NSFW)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Jarvis ­ Creative ­ Studios
Goldmember
Avatar
2,405 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 845
Joined Aug 2013
Location: Houston, Texas
     
Mar 29, 2016 18:23 |  #100

absplastic wrote in post #17953833 (external link)
Ha ha, you know I thought about it though ;-P Just didn't want to open that can of worms again.

Figured there were enough arguments in this thread already?


WEBSITE (external link)
flickr (external link)
Sony HX90V || Sony RX100V || Sony a6500 || Sony a9 || Sony E 10-18mm f/4 OSS || Sony FE 24-70 f/2.8 GM || Sony Sonnar T* FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA || Sony Sonnar T* FE 55mm f1.8 ZA || Sony FE 70-200 f/2.8 GM OSS || Godox speedlights and strobes

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
icor1031
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
883 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 227
Joined Jan 2015
Post edited over 3 years ago by icor1031.
     
Mar 29, 2016 18:24 |  #101

Jarvis Creative Studios wrote in post #17953843 (external link)
Figured there were enough arguments in this thread already?

This is nothing, try a game forum.


(2) Canon 6D || Zeiss Sonnar 135/2 || Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 || Sigma 85/1.4 ART || Helios 44-2 58/2 || Sigma 50/1.4 Art || Canon 24/2.8 || Rokinon 14/2.8 || (2) Eg-S Focusing Screen
Ideal Portraits (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ebiggs
Senior Member
Avatar
638 posts
Gallery: 24 photos
Likes: 70
Joined Oct 2012
Location: Spring Hill, KS
     
Mar 30, 2016 10:23 as a reply to  @ icor1031's post |  #102

"The Perceptual MPix measure provides photographers with a value that is more strongly associated with the true resolution of their camera sensor when coupled with a lens, or vice versa. For example, a photographer who shoots with a 20-megapixel sensor might produce images that are realistically only 15 megapixels in resolution. A number of factors can cause this loss in megapixels and resolution, including such lens defects as optical aberrations, light diffraction, or an ineffective anti-aliasing filter. The difference in number between a sensor’s megapixels and Perceptual MPix quantifies this loss."

This is one paragraph that has always bothered me from DXO. What are they testing here? The lens or the sensor?
And another one ....

"... P-Mpix is the unit of a sharpness measurement. The number of P-Mpix of a camera/lens combination is equal to the pixel count of a sensor that would give the same sharpness if tested with a perfect theoretical optics, ..."


G1x, EOS 1Dx, EOS 1D Mk IV, ef 8-15mm f4L,
ef 16-35mm f2.8L II, ef 24-70mm f2.8L II, ef 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II,
Sigma 150-600mm f5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sport
*** PS 6, ACR 9.3, Lightroom 6.5 ***

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
David ­ Arbogast
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
11,151 posts
Gallery: 36 photos
Likes: 7622
Joined Aug 2010
Location: West Point, Georgia
     
Mar 30, 2016 10:48 |  #103

ebiggs wrote in post #17954633 (external link)
"The Perceptual MPix measure provides photographers with a value that is more strongly associated with the true resolution of their camera sensor when coupled with a lens, or vice versa. For example, a photographer who shoots with a 20-megapixel sensor might produce images that are realistically only 15 megapixels in resolution. A number of factors can cause this loss in megapixels and resolution, including such lens defects as optical aberrations, light diffraction, or an ineffective anti-aliasing filter. The difference in number between a sensor’s megapixels and Perceptual MPix quantifies this loss."

This is one paragraph that has always bothered me from DXO. What are they testing here? The lens or the sensor?
And another one ....

"... P-Mpix is the unit of a sharpness measurement. The number of P-Mpix of a camera/lens combination is equal to the pixel count of a sensor that would give the same sharpness if tested with a perfect theoretical optics, ..."

Haha...yes, that perceptual Mpix was and is a bad idea. From a marketing standpoint, though, it is brilliant. DXO has become the corporate polished version of KR. :)

The mpix score isn't so bad if it's just one aspect of someone's evaluation of a lens, but all too often it does get cited as THE defining judgment on a lens.

I own the Zeiss Apo Sonnar 2/135mm, which has an outstanding mpix score, but in all honesty, I don't really think it's all that awesome. Super sharp? Yep. But, it has a so-so bokeh and doesn't even render a scene with as much overall contrast as my lowly 70-200mm f/4L IS. I'm by no means down on the lens, just using it as an anecdote to say that the mpix score isn't entirely successful at rating lenses.


David | Flickr (external link)
Sony α7R II | CV 12mm, FE 12-24mm, Loxia 21mm, Loxia 35mm, CV 40mm, FE 50mm ZA, Loxia 85mm, Batis 85mm, Batis 135mm

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wallstreetoneil
Goldmember
Avatar
2,086 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 1205
Joined Nov 2014
Location: Toronto Canada
     
Mar 30, 2016 11:49 |  #104

David Arbogast wrote in post #17954676 (external link)
I own the Zeiss Apo Sonnar 2/135mm, which has an outstanding mpix score, but in all honesty, I don't really think it's all that awesome. Super sharp? Yep. But, it has a so-so bokeh and doesn't even render a scene with as much overall contrast as my lowly 70-200mm f/4L IS.

And why I feel sick having sold my 50L for the perfect 35L II. I was looking at some 50L pictures I took in the last few days and it has only made me feel worse - I now have to buy it again. The added problem for me was that I didn't like the original 35L and I sold them together to get the much better 35L II which I like a lot - but I miss the 50L - it has magic - I shot it at F1.6 to F2 - it is perfect for what it does - I hope the only thing they do to the new version is give it a tiny bit of tack sharpness at F1.2 and remove the worst of the CA - otherwise if they do more than that they will ruin it.


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
icor1031
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
883 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 227
Joined Jan 2015
     
Mar 30, 2016 12:39 |  #105

David Arbogast wrote in post #17954676 (external link)
Haha...yes, that perceptual Mpix was and is a bad idea. From a marketing standpoint, though, it is brilliant. DXO has become the corporate polished version of KR. :)

The mpix score isn't so bad if it's just one aspect of someone's evaluation of a lens, but all too often it does get cited as THE defining judgment on a lens.

I own the Zeiss Apo Sonnar 2/135mm, which has an outstanding mpix score, but in all honesty, I don't really think it's all that awesome. Super sharp? Yep. But, it has a so-so bokeh and doesn't even render a scene with as much overall contrast as my lowly 70-200mm f/4L IS. I'm by no means down on the lens, just using it as an anecdote to say that the mpix score isn't entirely successful at rating lenses.

How does the sonnar 135 compare to otus, excluding sharpness?


(2) Canon 6D || Zeiss Sonnar 135/2 || Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 || Sigma 85/1.4 ART || Helios 44-2 58/2 || Sigma 50/1.4 Art || Canon 24/2.8 || Rokinon 14/2.8 || (2) Eg-S Focusing Screen
Ideal Portraits (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

13,737 views & 38 likes for this thread
Will Otus 85 retain its value?
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is JohnBonney
1012 guests, 331 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.