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Thread started 22 Aug 2016 (Monday) 13:52
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Kodak Tri-x Grain question

 
laxlife1234
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Aug 22, 2016 13:52 |  #1

Hello photo doods,

I am getting strange crystal-like grain pattern on my negatives. I'm not sure if it's due to the Tri-X rolls being bad rolls (although they were fresh), if it's my temperature that is off/contamination in my tank, or I am just missing something completely. Would like some advice from anyone whose encountered this problem and can let me in on a long lost secret of how to avoid this.

Thanks for the help in advance, photos of grain is attached here!


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Aug 22, 2016 14:21 |  #2

laxlife1234 wrote in post #18102761 (external link)
Hello photo doods,

I am getting strange crystal-like grain pattern on my negatives. I'm not sure if it's due to the Tri-X rolls being bad rolls (although they were fresh), if it's my temperature that is off/contamination in my tank, or I am just missing something completely. Would like some advice from anyone whose encountered this problem and can let me in on a long lost secret of how to avoid this.

Thanks for the help in advance, photos of grain is attached here!

Your suggestion that it might be the temperature suggests that you were not paying attention to the temperature.

https://www.ephotozine​.com …when-film-processing-4639 (external link)


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laxlife1234
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Post edited over 2 years ago by laxlife1234.
     
Aug 22, 2016 14:30 as a reply to  @ Archibald's post |  #3

And there lies my answer. Thank you, I will need to pay more attention to temperature from now on.

Edit: further reading on the subject, the temp differences between my fixer/developer are no more than +/- 5* at most, so I am a little confused how I get so much apparent reticulation. Seems like people want to achieve this effect, but considering it is modern tri-x, it should be able to withstand a few degrees temp change from developer to fixer, no?




  
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Aug 22, 2016 14:48 |  #4

laxlife1234 wrote in post #18102808 (external link)
And there lies my answer. Thank you, I will need to pay more attention to temperature from now on.

Edit: further reading on the subject, the temp differences between my fixer/developer are no more than +/- 5* at most, so I am a little confused how I get so much apparent reticulation. Seems like people want to achieve this effect, but considering it is modern tri-x, it should be able to withstand a few degrees temp change from developer to fixer, no?

What variety of degree are we talking?

Anyway, an experiment or two should answer the question.

Are you going directly from D to F?


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Aug 23, 2016 08:17 |  #5

laxlife1234 wrote in post #18102761 (external link)
I am getting strange crystal-like grain pattern on my negatives

Not called "grain." It's called reticulation. It is an effect some go for intentionally. Help all over the web. google (no quotes): "film developing reticulation.". Basically it is caused when taking the film from one bath to another with a dramatic temperature difference.

Edit: not limited to Tri-X. You naturally thought it was a grain issue because Tri-X is a fast, grainy film. Reticulation is damage to the emulsion caused by the temp swings and can be done on finer grain films.


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laxlife1234
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Aug 23, 2016 17:57 |  #6

Picture North Carolina wrote in post #18103566 (external link)
Not called "grain." It's called reticulation. It is an effect some go for intentionally. Help all over the web. google (no quotes): "film developing reticulation.". Basically it is caused when taking the film from one bath to another with a dramatic temperature difference.

Edit: not limited to Tri-X. You naturally thought it was a grain issue because Tri-X is a fast, grainy film. Reticulation is damage to the emulsion caused by the temp swings and can be done on finer grain films.

It's good to know this for future - didn't appear to be a common problem I saw when searching for a solution. I guess I should check my fixer temp before my next developing sesh, definitely isn't my developer, must be the fixer!

Off topic: Are there any academic books/sites that are possibly free and useful for learning more about color developing?




  
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Aug 23, 2016 18:21 |  #7

laxlife1234 wrote in post #18104052 (external link)
It's good to know this for future - didn't appear to be a common problem I saw when searching for a solution. I guess I should check my fixer temp before my next developing sesh, definitely isn't my developer, must be the fixer!

Off topic: Are there any academic books/sites that are possibly free and useful for learning more about color developing?

It could be ANY drastic change: stop vs developer, fixer vs stop, wash vs. fixer

Get your B&W well under control AND CONQUERED well BEFORE you even THINK about color processing...chemistry temperature controls are much much tighter for consistency of outcome in color balance.


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Aug 23, 2016 18:52 |  #8

laxlife1234 wrote in post #18104052 (external link)
Off topic: Are there any academic books/sites that are possibly free and useful for learning more about color developing?

Not sure what you want to know about color developing. Just follow instructions. Or do you want to know about color coupler chemistry??


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Aug 23, 2016 19:06 |  #9

Holy cow, I feel like I'm in the wayback machine.:-P


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Aug 23, 2016 19:09 |  #10

windpig wrote in post #18104122 (external link)
Holy cow, I feel like I'm in the wayback machine.:-P

Those were the days, when photographers smelled of darkroom!


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Aug 23, 2016 19:16 |  #11

Archibald wrote in post #18104126 (external link)
Those were the days, when photographers smelled of darkroom!

And the smell of Fixer saturates you and takes about 2 years to leave your body, it seems like a half life of 6 mo...every 6 months you smell half as bad.

Obviously exaggerating the time, but the longevity of odor is characteristic.


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Aug 24, 2016 05:09 |  #12

Archibald wrote in post #18104126 (external link)
Those were the days, when photographers smelled of darkroom!

Yea, I miss that. When doing prints, I never used tongs. Always used fingers, and they always smelled like it. Glorious days.

Wilt wrote in post #18104074 (external link)
Get your B&W well under control AND CONQUERED well BEFORE you even THINK about color processing...chemistry temperature controls are much much tighter for consistency of outcome in color balance.

What Wilt says a thousand times over. Don't take this the negative way it may sound, but if you're having trouble with BW. Color shouldn't even be a thought right now. I'm pulling 30-year old cobwebbed info out of my head right now, so I could be wrong, but... I tried color a couple of time. Failed miserably every time. If I remember correctly, temp tolerances for color were 1/2 degree. I did not have an environment that allowed me to hold such tight tolerances, so I gave up.


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Aug 24, 2016 08:01 |  #13

Picture North Carolina wrote in post #18104458 (external link)
Yea, I miss that. When doing prints, I never used tongs. Always used fingers, and they always smelled like it. Glorious days.

What Wilt says a thousand times over. Don't take this the negative way it may sound, but if you're having trouble with BW. Color shouldn't even be a thought right now. I'm pulling 30-year old cobwebbed info out of my head right now, so I could be wrong, but... I tried color a couple of time. Failed miserably every time. If I remember correctly, temp tolerances for color were 1/2 degree. I did not have an environment that allowed me to hold such tight tolerances, so I gave up.

E6 processing got to be not two bad, as it was possible to bring the temperatures down to around 20 celsius (I think that is about 60F IIRC) which meant room temp. This was great, as you could mix everything, then leave it an hour or two so that everything would stabilise at room temp. Which I also what I used to do with monochrome to avoid the reticulation issue. You then just adjust the timings to match the exact ambient temp. A friend of mines dad worked for Agfa and was able to get me a sample pack of a system that the company introduced that allowed printing from transparencies, and only required dish development in a dilute solution of Sodium Hydroxide. The results were very good, but the system although easy to use never really became popular. It was very much easier than Cibachrome.

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Aug 24, 2016 10:35 |  #14

Picture North Carolina wrote in post #18104458 (external link)
What Wilt says a thousand times over. Don't take this the negative way it may sound, but if you're having trouble with BW. Color shouldn't even be a thought right now. .

Yes, I had absolutely NO negative thoughts when previously writing, but speaking from 45 years of experience in the darkroom, including Cibachrome prints, trying to give sage advice.

I recall as a 14 year old trying color transparency for the first time, and also color printing...I did not yet have B&W down pat to where everything was easy and natural and well controlled without much thought. In fact, my color transparency experience came under the tutelege of a veteran industrial photographer, and the first thing he had to teach me was loading a stainless steel film reel. Fast forward 4+ years, after 2000 hours had accumulated in the darkroom meeting publication deadlines of the HS newspaper, and color processing was not at all a blur like it had been before mastering the B&W darkroom.

If you have to try to figure out WHY RETICULATION and at what step it is being caused, you do not yet have your process down pat and second nature.
Do yourself a favor...Learn to walk before you try to run and stumble.


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Aug 24, 2016 10:43 |  #15

BigAl007 wrote in post #18104512 (external link)
E6 processing got to be not two bad, as it was possible to bring the temperatures down to around 20 celsius (I think that is about 60F IIRC) which meant room temp. This was great, as you could mix everything, then leave it an hour or two so that everything would stabilise at room temp. Which I also what I used to do with monochrome to avoid the reticulation issue. You then just adjust the timings to match the exact ambient temp. A friend of mines dad worked for Agfa and was able to get me a sample pack of a system that the company introduced that allowed printing from transparencies, and only required dish development in a dilute solution of Sodium Hydroxide. The results were very good, but the system although easy to use never really became popular. It was very much easier than Cibachrome.

Alan

Yes, today's chemistry makes it much easier to do color.

But a veteran in the darkroom should already KNOW what to do when the chemistry is not conveniently already AT the proper temperature, and can to it without much thought. Depending upon where you live, your room might be under 68°F or over 68°F due to being in a cold snap or in a heat wave, and if the chemistry is impossible to get to right temperature under those circumstance (e.g. 'room temp' is too warm, and the cold water comes out of the taps at 75°F.) you need to be able to deal with the challenge. Trying to do color with those different techniques of coping already learned makes the processing of color much less daunting.


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