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Thread started 24 Aug 2016 (Wednesday) 21:29
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Canon 5D Mark IV -- Time to Discuss!

 
markd61
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Aug 27, 2016 23:21 as a reply to  @ post 18106869 |  #421

Movie studios will NOT be picking this camera for video.

While it has 4K as a marquee feature it records in MJPG and lacks a flat profile. (though it does have its HDR video mode though I can only wonder how that will grade), No 4K HDMI out, no head phone jack, a crop frame that is only slightly larger than µ43.

Some issues my be solved with firmware upgrades but I wouldn't hold my breath as then it starts stepping on the toes of the 1Dc and C100.

Right now a mature µ43 4K camera is a GH4 for about $1000. The GH5 is right around the corner and will open the gap even further.

The 4K feature was implemented to keep up with the competition. However, it seems Canon views its video users as relatively unsophisticated and presumes the bulk will be happy with what ships.
Canon possibly thinks that more demanding video users will look at the C-100.




  
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Van ­ Gogh
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Aug 27, 2016 23:56 |  #422

bacchanal wrote in post #18108730 (external link)
C100 II would be my choice for sure, It's a really nice form factor, much more appropriate codec for dealing with hours of footage, built in NDs. If you really needed 4k (which I agree, isn't necessary for weddings at this point), the closest thing in terms of price/usability is probably the FS5.

Yes, I have heard great things about FS5 but can't get over the fact that Canon Dual Pixel AF for live view focusing is considered very superior to anything else out there...


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Aug 28, 2016 00:08 |  #423

jbrackjr wrote in post #18108578 (external link)
That is exactly how the 80D works.;-)a

Awesome. I have wanted that feature for years.


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Perfectly ­ Frank
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Aug 28, 2016 01:45 |  #424

graham121 wrote in post #18108628 (external link)
Frank, not sure if you are aware that you can customise the shooting speeds on the 1D4 from 2-10fps on Hi and 1-9 on low CF III.18.

And the battery life of the 1D4, like all the 1 series, is still far greater so I am not convinced yet.

Uh-oh, I need to read the manual again :oops:
Thanks for the update.

Right, how the 5D4 works for aviation remains to be seen. I hope to rent both the 5D4 and 1DXII before the year is over.


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Aug 28, 2016 02:46 |  #425

Talley wrote in post #18108573 (external link)
Photoshop is not real photography... I mean I get it it's an artsy thing to do but video, photo... it's all the exact same thing. MJPEG = jpeg so I disagree with your comment. Capturing a frame of video is the same thing as capturing an image especially when you have full control if ISO, Shutter and aperture in the video

It's raising spray and pray to an art form that's for certain, in fact not spray and pray, just pray. I compose an image, hoping to grab a frame from a video isn't what I would call composing, fantastically useful and fun definately , but firmly in the realm of a snapper rather than a photographer. Film of course can be composed, cinematography can be amazing, 'Hero' for example, but they still have a stills guy for the photo's.


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sploo
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Aug 28, 2016 04:22 |  #426

Van Gogh wrote in post #18108360 (external link)
Ok I think you answered my question with your post.  :p
So, shutter speed and the resulting sharpness of frame grabs will not really have anything to do with shutter speed we select in video, fps is all that matters!

If I understand the above correctly... the opposite!

Think of the video frame frame as being how often you press the shutter button. The shutter speed is how long the shutter stays open, and that's what will control sharpness of moving objects.

A high frame rate simply means you're taking more photos per second.

What you can't do is have a shutter speed that's slower than the frame rate, as the camera couldn't take enough frames in the time required.

For video work, a shutter speed of twice the frame rate (e.g. 1/50th for 25fps) tends to make what we consider "natural" video. For screen grabs you'll likely want a higher shutter speed to get sharp individual frames, at the expense of slightly odd looking video.

I suppose in time someone may develop tools that look at video frames and smear them such that you can take 30fps video with a 1/1000th shutter speed (for sharp stills) but then produce an edit that looks smooth for video playback. Someone's already mentioned the possibility of cool stuff with Twixor.


AltgnJoey wrote in post #18108577 (external link)
I also think composite photography is a joke as well but I'm not going to go off topic.

Remember that Ansel Adams did an awful lot of editing in his day ;)

jbrackjr wrote in post #18108590 (external link)
I'm not clear on why Canon's 4k file size is 4 to 5 times the size of Nikon & Sony? And if I read the reviews correctly, the extra large files provide nothing in return except to be a PIA in processing and taking up enormous capacity on your cf cards.

Maybe I missed it in this thread.

It effectively stores a flick book of individual JPEG photos, with no compression of moving objects between the frames (i.e. it's interframe only, rather than inter and intra like MPEG).

That makes it good for image quality and extracting stills, but not so good for compression (the file sizes are big).

markd61 wrote in post #18108720 (external link)
IQ was the same.
I expect the mk4 to be only slightly better in IQ.

I'm not expecting huge high ISO improvements, but I am expecting some serious steps forward in low ISO DR and noise character. The 80D and 1Dx2 have achieved that; I want that too! :)


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sploo
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Aug 28, 2016 04:41 |  #427

markd61 wrote in post #18108734 (external link)
, a crop frame that is only slightly larger than µ43.

Some issues my be solved with firmware upgrades but I wouldn't hold my breath as then it starts stepping on the toes of the 1Dc and C100.

Throwing out a random idea; I wonder if the Magic Lantern team could configure the camera to record 6144x3240 MJPEG, with a more aggressive compression setting to keep the data rate feasible for the card. Once resized to 4096x2160 in post the quality may be ok (the full 6144x3240 frames would likely look bad at the pixel level due to strong compression).

That wouldn't solve the problems of large files but would result in 4K video with only a small crop from the cameras sensor.

The issue would be whether the camera's JPEG engine could compress those large frames quickly enough, as that's a lot more pixels per frame.


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Aug 28, 2016 04:54 |  #428

sploo wrote in post #18108853 (external link)
If I understand the above correctly... the opposite!

Think of the video frame frame as being how often you press the shutter button. The shutter speed is how long the shutter stays open, and that's what will control sharpness of moving objects.

A high frame rate simply means you're taking more photos per second.

What you can't do is have a shutter speed that's slower than the frame rate, as the camera couldn't take enough frames in the time required.

For video work, a shutter speed of twice the frame rate (e.g. 1/50th for 25fps) tends to make what we consider "natural" video. For screen grabs you'll likely want a higher shutter speed to get sharp individual frames, at the expense of slightly odd looking video.

I suppose in time someone may develop tools that look at video frames and smear them such that you can take 30fps video with a 1/1000th shutter speed (for sharp stills) but then produce an edit that looks smooth for video playback. Someone's already mentioned the possibility of cool stuff with Twixor.

Remember that Ansel Adams did an awful lot of editing in his day ;)

It effectively stores a flick book of individual JPEG photos, with no compression of moving objects between the frames (i.e. it's interframe only, rather than inter and intra like MPEG).

That makes it good for image quality and extracting stills, but not so good for compression (the file sizes are big).

I'm not expecting huge high ISO improvements, but I am expecting some serious steps forward in low ISO DR and noise character. The 80D and 1Dx2 have achieved that; I want that too! :)

The classic use of this in a big blockbuster movie is the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan, and many of the other combat scenes in that movie. They were shot at much higher shutter speeds, and the resulting sharpness of the image gives the crisp but flickering effect.

Oh and if you actually look at 35mm cine film, the crop Canon have used gives a very similar frame area to non anamorphic film. Remember the cine frame was based on a four sprocket pull down format of 24×18mm. The still image format tipped this on it's side, and used eight holes for 36×24. So for video sensors anything bigger than APS-C is larger than the traditional 35mm format.

Alan


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Aug 28, 2016 05:06 |  #429

BigAl007 wrote in post #18108862 (external link)
The classic use of this in a big blockbuster movie is the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan, and many of the other combat scenes in that movie. They were shot at much higher shutter speeds, and the resulting sharpness of the image gives the crisp but flickering effect.

Oh and if you actually look at 35mm cine film, the crop Canon have used gives a very similar frame area to non anamorphic film. Remember the cine frame was based on a four sprocket pull down format of 24×18mm. The still image format tipped this on it's side, and used eight holes for 36×24. So for video sensors anything bigger than APS-C is larger than the traditional 35mm format.

Alan

I've seen example videos shot at different shutter speeds before but didn't know that about SPR. Interesting, thanks.


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Aug 28, 2016 05:27 |  #430

Next time Saving Private Ryan is on my eyes will be glued to the screen. Interesting bits of video information in this thread, I never knew I knew so little...........


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Aug 28, 2016 05:55 |  #431

I think i can use the video to shoot a basketball dunk and then pull out the perfect frame considering 7fps stills aren't enough. I will have fun trying that, but cannot rely on that mode as i wouldn't have enough storage for the game. I want to see some shadow pulling examples, has anything been posted?


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Aug 28, 2016 05:57 |  #432

Talley wrote in post #18108299 (external link)
My PRIMARY interest in the 4K is it's frame grab ability. For me my kid is in baseball...albeit 8U so it's still small kids. You don't know how many countless 10fps 7D2 shots or 6fps 5D3 shots I wasted trying to get the ball on bat photo. I did succeed but even still with timing and all that its like 70% wasted shots. NOW... I can use 4k and have 30fps and pull a frame from it and nail it every time AND it works to 1/4000 shutter AND it's a 1.64 crop so I can use my 200/2 and get me closer to the action doing this. NO more wasted shots. I also take photos of all the kids on the team as my way to contribute, in the end I do a 8x10 print of all the kids and a CD of many photos to their parents. They love them and I don't mind doing this.

Two of my daughters are in dance... I can now just do 4K and have them do their jumps/spins and be able to grab the perfect shot. This doesn't take away from using the regular photo because its' only 8.8MB photo BUT for facebook and having the memory it serves great.

I also took some of the frame grab samples of the 1DC and printed them to 8x10 and believe me I have ZERO issue with the output... looks fantastic! So again I'm just tickled over here and cannot wait to get my new 5D4!

You can produce 20x30 poster prints from an 8Mpx image, we did it all the time with the 20d and 30d with great results.


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Aug 28, 2016 06:03 |  #433

I have to say that I think one of the reasons that the beach scenes in SPR help to give a feeling of what it was really like is the use of the higher than normal shutter speeds for the frame rate. I'm lucky to have never had to fight in combat, but if you have ever been in a high stress situation where the adrenaline kicks in you will have felt that sense of heightened perception, and the effect of time slowing down. I remember as a teenager being sat in my dad's car, as he rear ended another car at quite high speed, and watching the bonnet (hood for you Americans) crumpled on impact. I also had plenty of time to grab the dashboard, to stop me making contact with the windscreen, as this was in the days before seat belts became compulsory. I have also seen documentary evidence that showed in that type of high stress incident that we can perceive events that last only 1/1000 second, instead of the more normal 1/100 or so. So most of the guys crossing that beach on D Day would have perceived it in a very similar way.

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Aug 28, 2016 07:07 |  #434

I can't wait to get mine, but I think the first lens to put on it is my beautiful 17-40 and run outside and take amazing landscapes around my house. Fall is coming soon and I want to get every color out of the camera and post a few here. Love FF, love my first L lens.

My 5D2 did a good job last night, but my iPhone was better taking portraits in the dark. Must work on that one. I'm hoping the 5D4 focuses better in dim light.


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Aug 28, 2016 07:09 |  #435

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18108885 (external link)
I think i can use the video to shoot a basketball dunk and then pull out the perfect frame considering 7fps stills aren't enough. I will have fun trying that, but cannot rely on that mode as i wouldn't have enough storage for the game. I want to see some shadow pulling examples, has anything been posted?

Do you shoot raw at a game though?

500Mbps of MJPEG video is about 60MB per second. A one second burst of 30MB raw files at 7fps is 210MB; so with just short bursts of MJPEG video it's unlikely to use more card space than shooting raw.

That's also just made me realise that if Canon had put a CFast slot in the 5D4 we probably could have shot at 7fps near continuously :(

I've only seen JPEG sample photos so far, so you could try pulling shadows but it won't really give a full picture until we get raws. That said, I did try that with the 1Dx2 and 80D JPEGs and they faired better than the same from the 5D3.


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