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Thread started 24 Aug 2016 (Wednesday) 21:29
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Canon 5D Mark IV -- Time to Discuss!

 
sploo
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Aug 30, 2016 17:28 |  #661

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
5DIII to 5D IV? Not really an upgrade. I am a canon fanboy but I am not going to be dishonest about this, Who is shelling out $3500 for this camera when you can get better alternatives for less? If resolution is your thing then by all means go for it but you can get the 5DsR for less.

I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

Given that an 80D shames a 5D3 for low ISO DR (despite its sensor size disadvantage), and that early reports appear to indicate the 5D4 has made a similar step forward in DR, I'd suggest the 5D4 is quite a significant upgrade vs the 5D3 in that regard (indeed, it's one of my main reasons for upgrading).

If I wanted huge DR (well, OK, I do, but I want other things too) I'd invest in a D810 or an A7Rii. If I wanted huge resolution (at some expense in DR) I'd get a 5Ds. If I wanted huge frame rate it'd be a 1Dx2.

Point being - the 5D series has become a jack of all trades; there's always going to be a camera out there that betters it in some area(s); but as an overall single camera for someone that doesn't really want to run multiple bodies, it does most things very well.

I held off for ages when the 5D3 was released (I was considering jumping ship to a D800). In the end, the 5D3 turned out to be a great camera - with limitations and frustrations, but overall still a great bit of kit. The 5D4 looks like more of the same, and improves in a couple of the areas I felt the 5D3 lacked the most.

Having experienced DPAF on the 80D, I'm also looking forward to that addition on this new 5D.


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Aug 30, 2016 17:33 |  #662

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

Coming from a 6D, pretty much every single one of the features....


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Aug 30, 2016 17:36 |  #663

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
Thank me later sir... :-P

https://www.dpreview.c​om …6521&y=-1.014038151531435 (external link)

Thank You! Someone with some common sense.

Sorry I offended you but it's the truth. 5D2 to 5DIII was an upgrade, 1D IV to 1DX was an upgrade, 5DIII to 5D IV? Not really an upgrade. I am a canon fanboy but I am not going to be dishonest about this, Who is shelling out $3500 for this camera when you can get better alternatives for less? If resolution is your thing then by all means go for it but you can get the 5DsR for less.

I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

The articulating touch screen! Oops. Sorry, that's my 80D...


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Aug 30, 2016 17:44 |  #664

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

I'm have a 5D3 and am very interested in the 5D4, but won't be pre-ordering one. The features I'm most interested in include:

Better images at high ISO
More megapixels since I can't afford 800mm glass
Improved AF: -3 EV vs -2 EV, f/8 @ all points, more spread
Deeper buffer and better SD write speeds
Ability to set any desired minimum shutter speed in auto ISO mode (5D3 max floor is 1/250')
Exposure compensation in auto ISO mode (like 1Dx got with firmware upgrade)

GPS is interesting but not if it kills the battery. I'll probably try but disable it if battery drain is considerable.

Wifi and NFC don't interest me. I don't show people unprocessed files.

DPAF and 4k don't interest me since I don't shoot video. DP raw files don't interest me since I don't use Canon's software and they effectively cut the buffer in half.




  
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Aug 30, 2016 17:46 |  #665

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
Thank me later sir... :-P

https://www.dpreview.c​om …6521&y=-1.014038151531435 (external link)

Thank You! Someone with some common sense.

Sorry I offended you but it's the truth. 5D2 to 5DIII was an upgrade, 1D IV to 1DX was an upgrade, 5DIII to 5D IV? Not really an upgrade. I am a canon fanboy but I am not going to be dishonest about this, Who is shelling out $3500 for this camera when you can get better alternatives for less? If resolution is your thing then by all means go for it but you can get the 5DsR for less.

I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

Lots of people will disagree with your 5D11 to 5D3...Im not in that camp....I thought it was significant. Not in terms of ISO darks shadows. It was actually pretty darn close. 1/2 -3/4 at best stop. The significance was the AF system on the 5D3 over the 5D2...huge difference plus dual cards if i recall.

Im not trying to be a dick either. But I Know what these sensors did and where they fell apart at.

We DO NOT 100% know for sure until we get some real world shooting and raws out there to compare

But I do 110% know for sure that the 1Dx2 is a full stop on the 1Dx1 and more importantly darks,shadows and detail DOES NOT break down at 15000 like the 1Dx1 does. It totally falls apart at 150%. Useless in my opinion if you had to crop.

The 1Dx2 absolutly Does not

Based on the sensor technology that Canon has developed, I would expect the same performance with the 5D4 over the 5D3. I think your going to see a full stop.....Thats significant

I think your also going to see Substantial improvements in darks and shadows and details retained at higher ISO--Thats Significant

When the 1DxMKIV came out, Jeff Ascough used it and reported that he was getting and using 8000 ISO files that were usable and primary reason #1 why he decided to use the camera in his work. Like others, I felt he was stretching it. So I rented the 1DMKIV and gave it a try.....I Bought the next day.

Jeff says 12800 is a very usable file on the 5D4. He would not hesitate to use it at all and he would use 25000 in a push. That puts the camera a full stop over the 5D3---again significant upgrade. If Jeff Ascough says thats the way it works, you can bet your butt thats the way it going to work. He is a 100% straight stand up Guy who tells Canon and others what he see's. Absolute stand up photographer.

Im excited about the 5D4 and Im not even in the market for one. I have the 1Dx2 and a 5D3....BUT....my 5D3 will need to be replaced in 2017. Its going to have well over 150K on the count and I work my cameras to death with 25-30 weddings a season. They get a ton of use

Anytime I can get a stop of ISO improvement on a new body, Im going to jump all over it. AS a wedding photographer, its critical to my work and its critical to how i light.This camera is not going to be about the AF system like it was at the last update. They are putting this new sensor in Sony A7 territory for wedding photographers. Thats Huge. You are going to get great sensor performance with improvements in other areas of improvement in the camera.

As for AF performance. It might be substantial. The 1Dx2 has substantial AF performance over the 1Dx1. Huge in my opinion. Servo does not miss on the new body. It is phenominal how good the AF is on the 1Dx2.....significant over the 1Dx1 in my opinion as well as others who have used both bodies---Could very well be the dame thing for a 5D3 v/s a 5D4 comparison

Canon knocked it out of the park for 2016. This will be the year that will be remembered for many years to come. If its anything close to what happened with the 1Dx line up, then I think you would be foolish NOT to upgrade if you are a working pro.


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Aug 30, 2016 18:20 |  #666

umphotography wrote in post #18111602 (external link)
Please

He is a canon explorer of light ambassador and highly credible photographer. One of the very best in the industry.

Please. He might be a credible photographer, but his reviews aren't much more than fluff pieces. I've been shooting Canon for over a decade, and I've been rolling my eyes at his reviews since the 5DII. They're not in depth, are never critical, and can't be called objective.

Canon promotes and publishes his reviews. Does that seem at all objective to you?


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Aug 30, 2016 18:47 |  #667

mike_d wrote in post #18111776 (external link)
I'm have a 5D3 and am very interested in the 5D4, but won't be pre-ordering one. The features I'm most interested in include:

Better images at high ISO
More megapixels since I can't afford 800mm glass
Improved AF: -3 EV vs -2 EV, f/8 @ all points, more spread
Deeper buffer and better SD write speeds
Ability to set any desired minimum shutter speed in auto ISO mode (5D3 max floor is 1/250')
Exposure compensation in auto ISO mode (like 1Dx got with firmware upgrade)

GPS is interesting but not if it kills the battery. I'll probably try but disable it if battery drain is considerable.

Wifi and NFC don't interest me. I don't show people unprocessed files.

DPAF and 4k don't interest me since I don't shoot video. DP raw files don't interest me since I don't use Canon's software and they effectively cut the buffer in half.

Right beside you on this.


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Aug 30, 2016 18:48 |  #668

bacchanal wrote in post #18111810 (external link)
Please. He might be a credible photographer, but his reviews aren't much more than fluff pieces. I've been shooting Canon for over a decade, and I've been rolling my eyes at his reviews since the 5DII. They're not in depth, are never critical, and can't be called objective.

Canon promotes and publishes his reviews. Does that seem at all objective to you?


Yes

I have not met an explorer of light shooter yet that doesn't have their crap together and doesn't tell it like it is. They are all best in the business for the areas they represent.

Same for Nikon ambassadors

These peoples reputations are more important than blowing smoke up peoples rear ends with fluff. That why the are selected to test and evaluate. I know 100% for sure that If they dont think its any good or there is a problem...They 100% speak out.....Canon and Nikon would not have it any other way anmd thats why they are represent the MFgs all across the world.

People need to get off the skeptical high Horse. I cant match these highly qualified skill sets that these great ambassadors have and Im darn sure No one else at POTN can either. When you get a chance to meet them and learn from them, then you will come to the same conclusion. I spent 4 days with Cliff Mautner 2 days with Damian Strohmeyer, 2 days with Lindsey Adler plus a couple of others...they have their stuff together and are extremely skilled and talented photographers.

You bet they are objective. Anyone with brains in their heads would be glad to have them in their line ups as representatives.


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Aug 30, 2016 18:57 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #669

Hilarious.


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Aug 30, 2016 18:59 |  #670

umphotography wrote in post #18111838 (external link)
Yes

I have not met an explorer of light shooter yet that doesn't have their crap together and doesn't tell it like it is. They are all best in the business for the areas they represent.

Same for Nikon ambassadors

These peoples reputations are more important than blowing smoke up peoples rear ends with fluff. That why the are selected to test and evaluate. I know 100% for sure that If they dont think its any good or there is a problem...They 100% speak out.....Canon and Nikon would not have it any other way anmd thats why they are represent the MFgs all across the world.

People need to get off the skeptical high Horse. I cant match these highly qualified skill sets that these great ambassadors have and Im darn sure No one else at POTN can either. When you get a chance to meet them and learn from them, then you will come to the same conclusion. I spent 4 days with Cliff Mautner 2 days with Damian Strohmeyer, 2 days with Lindsey Adler plus a couple of others...they have their stuff together and are extremely skilled and talented photographers.

You bet they are objective. Anyone with brains in their heads would be glad to have them in their line ups as representatives.

I understand the potential conflict of interest people are picking up on. What benefits do these Canon and Nikon photographers actually get? Are they worth compromising their reputation?




  
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Aug 30, 2016 19:03 |  #671

umphotography wrote in post #18111838 (external link)
Yes

I have not met an explorer of light shooter yet that doesn't have their crap together and doesn't tell it like it is. They are all best in the business for the areas they represent.

Same for Nikon ambassadors

These peoples reputations are more important than blowing smoke up peoples rear ends with fluff. That why the are selected to test and evaluate. I know 100% for sure that If they dont think its any good or there is a problem...They 100% speak out.....Canon and Nikon would not have it any other way anmd thats why they are represent the MFgs all across the world.

People need to get off the skeptical high Horse. I cant match these highly qualified skill sets that these great ambassadors have and Im darn sure No one else at POTN can either. When you get a chance to meet them and learn from them, then you will come to the same conclusion. I spent 4 days with Cliff Mautner 2 days with Damian Strohmeyer, 2 days with Lindsey Adler plus a couple of others...they have their stuff together and are extremely skilled and talented photographers.

You bet they are objective. Anyone with brains in their heads would be glad to have them in their line ups as representatives.

I don't doubt their skill nor their passion but they are clearly Canon ambassadors selling the Canon brand.


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Aug 30, 2016 19:11 |  #672

umphotography wrote in post #18111838 (external link)
Yes

I have not met an explorer of light shooter yet that doesn't have their crap together and doesn't tell it like it is. They are all best in the business for the areas they represent.

Same for Nikon ambassadors

These peoples reputations are more important than blowing smoke up peoples rear ends with fluff. That why the are selected to test and evaluate. I know 100% for sure that If they dont think its any good or there is a problem...They 100% speak out.....Canon and Nikon would not have it any other way anmd thats why they are represent the MFgs all across the world.

People need to get off the skeptical high Horse. I cant match these highly qualified skill sets that these great ambassadors have and Im darn sure No one else at POTN can either. When you get a chance to meet them and learn from them, then you will come to the same conclusion. I spent 4 days with Cliff Mautner 2 days with Damian Strohmeyer, 2 days with Lindsey Adler plus a couple of others...they have their stuff together and are extremely skilled and talented photographers.

You bet they are objective. Anyone with brains in their heads would be glad to have them in their line ups as representatives.

I think the subtly here is the difference between honesty and accuracy; if an experienced photography pro says they're hugely impressed with a camera - to the point they'll then use that camera to earn a living - you can be reasonably confident they're being honest in their assessment.

The critical point though is whether the gut feel and perception is technically correct. Even knowing that you're subject to bias doesn't mean you're immune from it.

If I recall correctly, Jeff was making some pretty big statements about the 5D4 that aren't really backed up with the data that's come out so far. Same issue for the differences in high ISO results between the 1Dx and 1Dx2.

I see this a lot in the audio world; people making grand statements about differences/improvemen​ts between products they've tried/own. Usually they're being honest (in that they're not intentionally trying to mislead), but they're often not factually accurate (due to confirmation bias, and its various cognitive friends).


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Aug 30, 2016 19:17 |  #673

DJHaze596 wrote in post #18111724 (external link)
I am not trying to be a dick, Would love to know everyone's reasoning to get the 5D Mark IV. What feature has you hooked?

going to just copy and paste what i posted earlier in this thread...

"all f/8 AF points, -3 EV sensitivity (-4 EV in live view!), wider AF coverage and improved tracking, better metering system, 30mpx seems like good compromise between better resolution vs having to deal with too big of a file size and maintaining high ISO performance, (assumed) much improved DR/noise floor, even shooting stills in live view is starting looking incredibly useful (think for example dark wedding reception, first dance, turn on live view and tap the LCD screen and track away) and that dual pixel tech that allows you to AFMA an image in post! that alone is pretty game changer to me (as matter of fact chatting to a Nikon wedding photographer mate last night at dinner and he's drooling over that function)"

add that to the fact looking at released sample images the new sensor despite having higher resolution seems to somehow improve high ISO noise by ~1/2 a stop and more importantly noticeably improved noise PATTERN particularly in the shadows compared to the 5D3 which I'd imagine in real world use would probably equate to at least 1 extra stop of useable ISO


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Aug 30, 2016 19:24 |  #674

There's some argument over this (http://www.rawdigger.c​om …non-dual-pixel-technology (external link)) on other forums, but in essence, the Dual Pixel raw files contain a normal raw image (each pair of pixels combined), and a second frame that's just from one of the two pixels in each pair - from this Canon can compute the Dual Pixel raw features.

However, it's been spotted that the second frame is effectively 1 stop down (which makes sense, as it's from one pixel in a pair rather than the sum of two), such that it seems you may be able to overexpose by 1 stop (clipping the highlights) but then recover that stop from the second frame in a DP raw file.

Maybe it'll turn out that it's not "real" data (in that you're not actually gaining a stop), but it'll be interesting to see where it goes.


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Aug 30, 2016 19:26 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #675

In the last 4 years, we have seen the release of the 5D3, 6D, 1DX, 1DX2, 5DS/5DSR, and now the 5D4 on the full frame front. We have only really increased the ISO performance from these bodies perhaps 1 to perhaps 1.5 stops (which I think is really pushing it). The pace at improving the high ISO has slowed down pretty dramatically. However with the last 3 cameras, Canon finally addressed (at least partially) the noise and DR issues due to the electronic noise in the shadows. That is actually quite significant, but perhaps is only a concern for a subset of the shooters vs those that desire cleaner high ISO.

I suspect that going forward, there will be less and less ISO gains, just tweaks to what we have today, and instead all efforts will be on the features of the different models. Perhaps they can work out a real 25 and 50 ISO level instead, and start going the other way. :) Bring on ISO 12....


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