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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 26 Jun 2016 (Sunday) 04:12
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80D or 6D

 
Chris.R
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Jul 17, 2016 10:30 |  #16

Certainly looks a more credible/complete set of results. (Check the 70D's, though ?! )

Happily I mostly use 80D at base iso, ( fixed to an MPE65). Perhaps Canon did something to give a slightly better number there at least, in the face of the flack they've been getting. The ancient Nikon D7100's line is still embarrassing.




  
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Jul 17, 2016 11:33 |  #17

Chris.R wrote in post #18069478 (external link)
Certainly looks a more credible/complete set of results. (Check the 70D's, though ?! )

Happily I mostly use 80D at base iso, ( fixed to an MPE65). Perhaps Canon did something to give a slightly better number there at least, in the face of the flack they've been getting. The ancient Nikon D7100's line is still embarrassing.

I'm in a similar boat as you as I do the bulk of my shooting at less than ISO 400. The 80D will still be a massive improvement over my T3i/600D.

Hopefully the 80D is a sign that Canon is finally taking things like DR seriously. Considering how good Sony's have become and that their main competitor uses them.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by absplastic.
     
Jul 17, 2016 12:23 |  #18

David_MC wrote in post #18069533 (external link)
Hopefully the 80D is a sign that Canon is finally taking things like DR seriously. Considering how good Sony's have become and that their main competitor uses them.

I honestly don't know what started the whole DR obsession with reviewers and measurebaters, but it's never had any practical implications for any photographer I know. And while it's true that the low-ISO DR of Sony's sensors is a stop better than Canon's best and 2+ stops better than most of Canon's sensors, 10 vs 12 stops of DR shouldn't matter if you're exposing properly. Landscape shooters need the most DR of anyone, and have always bracketed and/or used gradient NDs. For everyone else, if things are exposed and lit correctly, +/- a stop off DR should not make or break your work.

Also, if you look at those http://www.photonstoph​otos.net (external link) charts, you'll see that Nikon's own sensors aren't any better than Canon's. The D5's DR matches the 1DX, but falls short of the 1DXII and 5DS. That's not going to stop people buying the D5, because it's a freakin' fantastic camera all around. And if you look at entry-level camera, like Nikon D3100 vs Canon 700D, you'll see they are identical performers.

I also think that a lot of people have the wrong impression about what the DR of their camera actually is, largely due to misinterpretation of highlight warnings and not using or really understanding "exposing to the right". When inexperienced RAW shooters chimp and reduce their exposure until there are no flashing areas or zebra stripes, they are typically cheating themselves out of 2 to 3 full stops to DR, and getting noisier final results too, when they do exposure gain in post. Most of the camera nerds of PotN know all of this already, but the vast majority of DSLR users are unknowingly not using their cameras to their fullest potential in terms of getting the best exposed, lowest-noise results.


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Jul 17, 2016 13:04 |  #19

absplastic wrote in post #18069579 (external link)
I honestly don't know what started the whole DR obsession with reviewers and measurebaters, but it's never had any practical implications for any photographer I know. And while it's true that the low-ISO DR of Sony's sensors is a stop better than Canon's best and 2+ stops better than most of Canon's sensors, 10 vs 12 stops of DR shouldn't matter if you're exposing properly. Landscape shooters need the most DR of anyone, and have always bracketed and/or used gradient NDs. For everyone else, if things are exposed and lit correctly, +/- a stop off DR should not make or break your work.

Also, if you look at those http://www.photonstoph​otos.net (external link) charts, you'll see that Nikon's own sensors aren't any better than Canon's. The D5's DR matches the 1DX, but falls short of the 1DXII and 5DS. That's not going to stop people buying the D5, because it's a freakin' fantastic camera all around. And if you look at entry-level camera, like Nikon D3100 vs Canon 700D, you'll see they are identical performers.

I also think that a lot of people have the wrong impression about what the DR of their camera actually is, largely due to misinterpretation of highlight warnings and not using or really understanding "exposing to the right". When inexperienced RAW shooters chimp and reduce their exposure until there are no flashing areas or zebra stripes, they are typically cheating themselves out of 2 to 3 full stops to DR, and getting noisier final results too, when they do exposure gain in post. Most of the camera nerds of PotN know all of this already, but the vast majority of DSLR users are unknowingly not using their cameras to their fullest potential in terms of getting the best exposed, lowest-noise results.

You have put that into context better than anyone else. This emphasis on DR by marketing and reviewers seems to echo the megapixel arms race from a few years ago. You thought me something new today.


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Jul 18, 2016 06:01 |  #20

You still can't deny the fact that the raw files from D810 and a7rII are way more flexible than those from any of the current 5Ds.
It is very useful for those of us who mainly shoot landscape and portraits.


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Jul 18, 2016 08:02 |  #21

That is changing with the 1DX2 and 80D however, and presumably with any new camera coming out of Canon at this point, with the new sensor. This is the first gen, I am sure Canon will tweak these even further, making that gap almost non-existent.


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Chris.R
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Jul 18, 2016 09:53 |  #22

I honestly don't know what started the whole DR obsession with reviewers and measurebaters, but it's never had any practical implications for any photographer I know.

Ask a wedding photographer who's used a few makes, or a birder. Those folk usually stick to one make though, then swear by it.


Sure, for "typical scenes" it makes no difference at all, but if American bald eagles are your thing, or weddings where you have a lot of whites and blacks, then it shows easily. One stop doesn't sound much but it seems like more.
Get some raw files from mates and have a look - you may find it compelling, or not. It's not just DR and colour depth but also noise and lack of lowpass filters on APS. (A decent lens there makes me really not want a LPF)
I really don't care what camera make I use, but it seems strongly to me that Canon sensors to have some catching up to do.
Arguably, Nikon are behind on lenses & AF.

Canon's noise is quite a lot more noticeable than Nikon's - more colored as well as coarser, for the same iso.
Seeing how with a D800/810 , iso 200, you can just open up the shadows I expected the same of modern Canon FF sensors, but the couple of examples I've tried (5D3 and 5Dsr) - you just can't.

HDR for landscapes is fine until it's a bit windy :-x . Canon 80D has an integral HDR mode :-D but it doesn't save RAW files with it :-(.

I fuss most over small micro/macro stuff, where lighting can be a bit of a 'mare with some subjects. At least it's often motionless, but if you're stacking hundreds of frames already you really don't want to double up.

Yes - Canon and ETTR is as the plastic man says - takes some getting used to but worth it. That seems to be consistent across their range, thankfully.

Regarding those graphs - the D810 seems to be the daddy up to about iso 1200 then their D5. Horses for courses. Canon are also-ran. Sony are - interesting.

Or, compare a Canon 80D with any DX Nikon from D7100 on.

Just when you think you're getting it, look at the graphs http://www.photonstoph​otos.net/Charts/PDR_Sh​adow.htm (external link) . Start with the Nikon D7200, and D5 :-P . The notes explain - I think I understand.




  
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Aug 10, 2016 04:24 |  #23

So far I'm really happy with the results the 80d is giving me. It's been some of my older canon glass that has given me the most heart ache. The glass that i bought at the same time I bought my a2e way back when. The ancient sigma macro is working fine. The prints are just now starting to com back from the printer. ANy adjustments I've had to make where my fault. Remindes of the learning curve when I switched from Tr-x to Velvia back in the day. THe more i shoot the better. Ive reshot a couple of shots at the zoo to take advantage of the greater pixil count and I the focusing kept changing on me. Not used to all those focal points and the second nature of the controls isn't here yet. Once done, they new prints are much better than the old ones. Color is better, detail is better. Now once I've started generating positive cash flow, maybe I'll be real photographer when ive got enough cash for a 5d Mkiv.




  
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Chris.R
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Aug 10, 2016 16:26 |  #24

A few thousand shots down the line, (80D)it's mostly ok.
Biggest gripes -
on manual focus it doesn't tell you which way to turn the ring, unlike Nikons, and

Sometimes it just doesn't fire the shutter. I guess it's because it can't focus , or something, but it doesn't tell you what's wrong and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what causes it, still.

Quite often, if the subject is too far out of focus, it doesn't even try. Manually shoving the focus ring round (STM lens) ( guessing the direction, as above) helps it out.

Never seen that on 4 Nikon bodies. They can all hunt, but they don't "do nothing".




  
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Post edited over 2 years ago by absplastic. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 10, 2016 21:36 |  #25

Chris.R wrote in post #18091999 (external link)
A few thousand shots down the line, (80D)it's mostly ok.
Biggest gripes -
on manual focus it doesn't tell you which way to turn the ring, unlike Nikons

Can you clarify for those of us that shoot Canon what you mean by this? Manual focus is exactly that, manual. If you want it to tell you which way to turn the ring, rather than by reading the distance scale or by trial and error, why would you not just use auto-focus and have it do the whole job for you quicker than you can?

You can also remove AF Start from the shutter button, and move it to one of the other thumb buttons, "back button AF", and then you can use that button to AF your way into the ballpark, and then use the manual focus ring from there (for any Canon lens that supports full-time MF override, which is most of them now, notably not the 50mm f/1.8 mk II though).

Chris.R wrote in post #18091999 (external link)
Sometimes it just doesn't fire the shutter. I guess it's because it can't focus , or something, but it doesn't tell you what's wrong and it's annoying as hell. I don't know what causes it, still.

There is a custom function setting for whether AF lock is a prerequisite for shutter release.

Chris.R wrote in post #18091999 (external link)
Quite often, if the subject is too far out of focus, it doesn't even try. Manually shoving the focus ring round (STM lens) ( guessing the direction, as above) helps it out.

If that's what happens when you first engage AF, you have something amiss. It should always try, unless you have a lens that is too slow for it to work, or it's really dark, or the lens is malfunctioning. Once the camera has tried and failed, there is a custom function setting for whether or not it keeps trying, or it gives up and stops.

Chris.R wrote in post #18091999 (external link)
Never seen that on 4 Nikon bodies. They can all hunt, but they don't "do nothing".

Yeah, Canon bodies shouldn't do nothing either. This can happen though if there is a lens malfunction (like it's not able to move). When my 50 STM got sand in it, it would sometimes not even try to AF because it was bound up at a certain point in its travel (until I disassembled and cleaned it).


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Chris.R
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Chris.R. (4 edits in all)
     
Aug 11, 2016 06:41 |  #26

on manual focus it doesn't tell you which way to turn the ring, unlike Nikons


Can you clarify for those of us that shoot Canon what you mean by this? Manual focus is exactly that, manual. If you want it to tell you which way to turn the ring, rather than by reading the distance scale or by trial and error, why would you not just use auto-focus and have it do the whole job for you quicker than you can?

Sometimes manual focus is better, or obligatory. Auto focus does not always do it better than the user.
Then it can be useful to have the camera tell you which way.
An example would be where there's movement and you don't want the risk of the camera losing it and hunting for a time.
Nikon bodies with MF lenses, still have the body telling you which way. It's particularly useful with macro assemblies, Zeiss lenses or whatever.

Distance scale? You want me to stop to look at a distance scale to see what it says, measure the distance and work out which way the lens has to be turned? Easier to prod the ring and try again.

The STM lenses I've been quoting, don't have a distance scale, & I don't miss it. Others I have, do.

There is a custom function setting for whether AF lock is a prerequisite for shutter release.

ERRM - no there isn't. Lean towards, not require release. Are your bodies different?

--

If that's what happens when you first engage AF, you have something amiss. It should always try, unless you have a lens that is too slow for it to work, or it's really dark, or the lens is malfunctioning. Once the camera has tried and failed, there is a custom function setting for whether or not it keeps trying, or it gives up and stops.

It's doing what Canon make it do by design - nothing.
It's decided it can't focus, it continues to decide that it can't focus, then it decides again that it can't focus - - so it keeps doing nothing.
As you say, it gives up.
Nikons appear to think "I can't focus, so I'll fire the shutter as you requested then go hunting" or something. Canon does nothing, in single or AI modes..


How easy was it to take your 50mm STM apart? It makes sense to get one of those.
The 24 looks interesting too...


I have some Nikon & Canon bodies, I may try a Sony - I'm not pro or anti by prejudice. There are pros and cons, of course the abilities vary, but the Canons have more little annoyances which seem unnecessary. Like if I'm reviewing during my 2 second review period, why doesn't the Expand button work without me having to press the Review button? As an observation, things more often tend to not work on the Canon if something else isn't in a particular mode, where Nikons don't care, things just work.
Most of them one just learns to live with, but hey.
In my local photo club there are Nikon, Canon and Fuji fanatics. Good grief if we didn't have religions we'd have camera wars!

--

Back at 6D versus 80D, I was reflecting on the virtues of a wide DR.
Taking snaps in a cathedral (stained glass windows + interior), then just ordinary shots where there's a sky with featured white clouds, more would have been useful. The best sensors woulod have given me ~1 stop more. Enough to make a big difference? Not dramatically, I think.




  
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absplastic
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Aug 11, 2016 11:56 |  #27

Chris.R wrote in post #18092509 (external link)
Distance scale? You want me to stop to look at a distance scale to see what it says, measure the distance and work out which way the lens has to be turned? Easier to prod the ring and try again.

No, I wouldn't expect you to stop and use the distance scale, only to look at it initially when setting up the camera, to see (relative to approximate subject distance), which way you have to start. After that, it's trial and error.

Chris.R wrote in post #18092509 (external link)
ERRM - no there isn't. Lean towards, not require release. Are your bodies different?

Hmm, it's been a feature on all my Canon bodies, somewhere in the menus, and as far as I know, it was always on by default. Just skimming the 80D manual, it looks like requiring AF lock is the only option in One-Shot mode, "If focus cannot be achieved, the AF point will turn orange. If this occurs, the picture cannot be taken even if the shutter button is pressed completely" and an option called "Focus Priority" in the AI servo modes, C.Fn II-4. "Pressing the shutter button does not take the picture until focus is achieved. Useful when you want to achieve focus before capturing the shot".

I don't have an 80D, but the functions are described the same way in my 60D and 5D manuals, and neither of these cameras will take a photo if AF lock is not acquired with these functions enabled. Are you saying your 80D will still release the shutter without acquiring focus, even in Focus Priority or One-shot AF mode? That's not what I'd expect, but if it's happening, maybe it's a bug?

Chris.R wrote in post #18092509 (external link)
It's doing what Canon make it do by design - nothing.
It's decided it can't focus, it continues to decide that it can't focus, then it decides again that it can't focus - - so it keeps doing nothing.
As you say, it gives up.

I'm not sure we have enough information here to know what's going on. Normally, if I take any of my cameras and fling the manual focus ring on the lens to one extreme or the other, such that the lens is completely defocused, pressing the AF-ON button will start the lens hunting immediately. The only time I've seen it do nothing at all was when I had the camera pointed at a blank white backdrop, in which case this behavior is expected since there is literally no information for the AF system to act on (so any attempt to focus would only use battery power unnecessarily).

Chris.R wrote in post #18092509 (external link)
How easy was it to take your 50mm STM apart? It makes sense to get one of those.

Not terribly difficult, no springs or things that explode apart leaving you wondering how it went together. But there are several mylar film ribbon connectors that need careful disconnection and reconnection. I have a tiny ball-end tool (intended for shaping clay) I use for this, so as not to scratch the board underneath. I had no choice in the matter, because fine sand got into the gears and the grease was making sure it couldn't be blown out.


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Chris.R
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Chris.R. (4 edits in all)
     
Aug 12, 2016 12:59 |  #28

Sounds like you're understanding the reverse of the problem.
I want to be able to make it fire the shutter, whether in focus or not - I want the choice..
I can't make it do that - except in Servo mode.
Can with a Nikon.

I'm (still) saying the problem is that the camera won't release the shutter if it decides it can't focus and it isn't going to try. I would like it to just release the shutter PLEASE! I usually use single, middle point only focus. If that happens to be plain or miles OOF, then nothing happens :-x .
"the picture cannot be taken".
Usually I'd fire the shutter, then move the camera a little to put the focus point over what I want, focus, then move it back - which may take too long, but I'd have got that first shot.

"so any attempt to focus would only use battery power unnecessarily" - or find focus, which is what you'd want..! I don't give a toss about battery power if I'm trying to take a picture!
If it went hunting like yours does, that would be second best to firing the shutter, but it doesn't even do that.

Try this just to illustrate:
(STM 55-250 lens at 250)
Camera on tripod, focus single point on a distant power cable, plain sky bg.
Manually focus to some short distance.
Press the shutter. NOTHING HAPPENS! Spot flashes in the viewfinder.
The cable is so far OOF that the camera detects nothing. If I tip the tripod up to focus on something middle distance, then the power cable is unblurred enough that, letting the tripod go back, it does then find focus.
A common situation would be with a bird, in focus but moved not central, so the shutter won't fire vmadvmadvmad . You could say "then use a different focus pattern" but then you risk the *** thing seeing some tree or something you didn't want to focus on.

It's a while since I used a Nikon but iirc there's ALSO a button you can press if you want it to "fire anyway" and you DON'T have "Fire anyway" already enabled. With an 80D you're lost with no options.

I'll try another long lens to see if it's different.




  
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Chris.R
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Chris.R. (5 edits in all)
     
Aug 12, 2016 13:25 |  #29

An L zoom does exactly the same at same aperture & FL.
But I just tried a Canon 700D, and it has no trouble at all!!! :rolleyes:


So unless there's another setting I've missed (possible!), they screwed up the 80D.

There may be an (internal/firmware ) setting - I mean would yours try to focus with the lens cap on? - though that introduces light level .




  
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Sep 06, 2016 20:38 as a reply to  @ post 18068726 |  #30

I just drowned my 5DMKII and am starting the search for a new camera. I mostly take landscapes and nature pics. I was looking at the 7D MK II and the 70D. How do you think these compare with the 80D and 6D?

Thanks




  
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80D or 6D
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