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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Weddings & Other Family Events Talk 
Thread started 19 Sep 2016 (Monday) 12:51
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thoughts on no flash (weddings)

 
drmaxx
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Sep 20, 2016 11:50 |  #16

jcolman wrote in post #18134324 (external link)
I'm not saying that you can't set yourself apart from the crowd and create high end images using a video light but there will be times when you're going to wish you had a more powerful light.

This video by Buissink might be interesting as he is using this as a way to distinguish himself: https://youtu.be/00K7p​BWOInk (external link)


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umphotography
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Sep 20, 2016 11:59 |  #17

valdano wrote in post #18134291 (external link)
Thanks guys. Yes I do know that light quality & quantity don't always go hand in hand. Just to be clear, i'm by no means saying I don't think flash is necessary.

You have some nice shots there Coleman, and i'm sure the average Joe won't be able to do that. I know I might seem a little hard headed so let me give you all a short background.

Where I am, most, if not all the photographers here shoot almost identical, with a few of the very good ones being a little different. it's usually vibrant, contrasty, and a lot of flash. So my reasons for trying to avoid flash photography is really an attempt to set myself apart.

Even though I haven't really started marketing my business I ideally want to target the higher end of the market and I want to be able to let my images justify the price. Trust me, there are some amazing photographers here who are brilliant with their technical detailing when it comes to lighting. I was just wondering if there was a way to go without using it in not so ideal situations.

Really hope I haven't made anyone feel like they 'wasted time commenting because i'm still stuck in my way' because each comment has affected my thought process in this regard. I think i'm still going to re-buy the D800 but instead of buying flashes/strobes I think I might get a few of these lights and utilize them with the ISO capabilities.

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Being very serious here

You might want to invest $2K and attend a Cliff Mautner Workshop for 3 days, or a Ghiones workshop and see what the top dogs who shoot with natural are really up to. At some point all of them supplement and add light. You can shoot natural when there is no light or very poor quality light. Any light that you add, speedlight, video light, strobes, is a tool. I would not want to lock myself into a style that will limit what you can do. I would lock myself into creating the best images possible and use as many tools and techniques as I could understand to make that happen

Just my .02 cents


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rebelsimon
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Sep 20, 2016 13:36 |  #18

valdano wrote in post #18133246 (external link)
I've been following this one guy in particular, as a means of both inspiration and learning, Gabe McClintock.

I checked out his work (weird coincidence, a photographer friend is getting a shoot in with him this week) and it's really good! If you look through his portfolio, he's got a lot of shots in good light, but he does include a ton of shots in difficult light. BUT, it's always when the subject turns just the right way to the light source. It makes for really good, dramatic portraits; I just don't know how I'd fit that into covering an event like a wedding.


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valdano
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Sep 20, 2016 16:27 |  #19

umphotography wrote in post #18134341 (external link)
Being very serious here

You might want to invest $2K and attend a Cliff Mautner Workshop for 3 days, or a Ghiones workshop and see what the top dogs who shoot with natural are really up to. At some point all of them supplement and add light. You can shoot natural when there is no light or very poor quality light. Any light that you add, speedlight, video light, strobes, is a tool. I would not want to lock myself into a style that will limit what you can do. I would lock myself into creating the best images possible and use as many tools and techniques as I could understand to make that happen

Just my .02 cents

Yes i've actually watched his videos on Kelby back when it was 'KelbyTraining' His vids were the first I saw when I started weddings so I sorta grew up on natural light. Totally agree with you on creating the best images versus working with self inflicted limitations. As I said, I was just thinking about something different, not that I had my mind dead set on it.

PS. That might be 2k for most, but for me, between the $700 in airfare, maybe another $300 in hotel, plus food, transportation etc, I might be well over 4k. I've always thought about it :)

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18134317 (external link)
I'm confused on how buying a constant light with one tenth the power and double or triple the price of a speedlight is going to set you apart from the crowd?

Well I was thinking of having my assistant light my subjects when shooting them, but it was just a thought without much process. Your comment pretty much made me see that something like that wouldn't be such a good idea.

rebelsimon wrote in post #18134427 (external link)
I checked out his work (weird coincidence, a photographer friend is getting a shoot in with him this week) and it's really good! If you look through his portfolio, he's got a lot of shots in good light, but he does include a ton of shots in difficult light. BUT, it's always when the subject turns just the right way to the light source. It makes for really good, dramatic portraits; I just don't know how I'd fit that into covering an event like a wedding.

Well he does weddings too, even on his blogs they seem fully natural, and yes, timing seems to be everything where he's concerned. it's sorta what I was thinking of which led me to make this post.

I don't neccessarily want to do what he does in terms of shooting style, but I want to break away from the contemporary 'standards' of shooting in certain lighting conditions. Well, on to trial and error for me :)


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Sep 20, 2016 16:29 |  #20

drmaxx wrote in post #18134336 (external link)
This video by Buissink might be interesting as he is using this as a way to distinguish himself: https://youtu.be/00K7p​BWOInk (external link)

Thanks for the link drmaxx. Watched a few minutes of it and will watch the rest when I get home from work. Thanks for the time and effort!


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Sep 20, 2016 17:45 |  #21

valdano wrote in post #18134291 (external link)
...I might seem a little hard headed ...

Yes

valdano wrote in post #18134291 (external link)
Where I am, most, if not all the photographers here shoot almost identical, with a few of the very good ones being a little different. it's usually vibrant, contrasty, and a lot of flash.

IMHO: There's a huge difference albeit there's a tendancy towards adequate lighting. (duh).

valdano wrote in post #18134291 (external link)
Even though I haven't really started marketing my business I ideally want to target the higher end of the market

Sorry but IMHO, if you're still at a point of asking others if its even possible, much less getting your marketing going, then you're miles away from charging for it, much less at the high end.

valdano wrote in post #18134291 (external link)
I think i'm still going to re-buy the D800 but instead of buying flashes/strobes I think I might get a few of these lights and utilize them with the ISO capabilities.

IMHO you don't have to go all gear-head on the lighting but some is often needed. Event photog is about catching the moment, without fail. You'd need a LOT (I mean a LOT) of proven skill at making that pan out, every time, without fail, before succeeding at something as important as a high end wedding.

Maybe look for another alternative such as using subdued lighting to make things *look like* you didn't add it. There are certainly a lot of unnaturally lit looking wedding photos around, particularly by the less-than-seasoned. Making heavy use of reflectors during the group and B&G shots could still be called "natural". That's just one idea.

In short, I just don't think no-flash-wedding is viable unless you're gifted or have some other proven & reliable means of lighting when needed.

Another thought in support of the D800 - using a camera with very good high ISO performance and DR can allow you to get away with minimal extra lighting.

Just a suggestion. Be sure you have a 2nd along to catch you if you fall. Also; make sure your professional insurance is up to date.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Sep 20, 2016 19:35 |  #22

Valdano, just wanted to say that I really respect that you are open to suggestions. Seems like too often folks pigeon hole themselves into a way of approaching a problem and stick with it. Of course this is not just with photography, but life.

I was just mentioning to a new colleague today that the very first non technical or artistic thing I learned about photography was the importance of reading a situation and responding in an appropriate manner. This could be bending a paperclip into the perfect shape to hold a product in position, or it could be telling a client to go to hell, and anywhere in between. You gotta be flexible but direct in your approach to what you want to do.

None of us have the perfect answer to your situation, you just have to take what has been offered up and do with it what feels right. At least you are approaching it with an honest intent ... that's what it takes, each and every time. Good luck, man.


Or, woman. ::D


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Sep 21, 2016 09:44 |  #23

NBEast wrote in post #18134699 (external link)
Yes

IMHO: There's a huge difference albeit there's a tendancy towards adequate lighting. (duh).

Sorry but IMHO, if you're still at a point of asking others if its even possible, much less getting your marketing going, then you're miles away from charging for it, much less at the high end.

IMHO you don't have to go all gear-head on the lighting but some is often needed. Event photog is about catching the moment, without fail. You'd need a LOT (I mean a LOT) of proven skill at making that pan out, every time, without fail, before succeeding at something as important as a high end wedding.

Maybe look for another alternative such as using subdued lighting to make things *look like* you didn't add it. There are certainly a lot of unnaturally lit looking wedding photos around, particularly by the less-than-seasoned. Making heavy use of reflectors during the group and B&G shots could still be called "natural". That's just one idea.

In short, I just don't think no-flash-wedding is viable unless you're gifted or have some other proven & reliable means of lighting when needed.

Another thought in support of the D800 - using a camera with very good high ISO performance and DR can allow you to get away with minimal extra lighting.

Just a suggestion. Be sure you have a 2nd along to catch you if you fall. Also; make sure your professional insurance is up to date.

1. Sorry If I come across as hard-headed. Not intentional at all. It's just that i've always learned to ask questions. That's the only true way to learning. A lot of people take the "It just won't work" and immediately give up. As for me, i'd go further to ask why it doesn't work to get a better understanding. That's all i'm doing... Just my personality bud. Thanks for your comment though

2. Well yes, I know, it's just that i've seen a minority of photographers (including the guy I mentioned earlier) do without any flash, and I simply wanted to know if anyone here has shot that way, how they did it, and how much effort went into to directing.

3. True, which is why I said i'm NOT marketing just set. I have to do my research to see what is viable and what is not, hence this post. i've learnt a lot from the comments received so far, stuff that probably couldn't get anywhere else. It's one thing to read someone's take on something, it''s completely different to interact with that person and have the option to ask questions etc. I want to get into the higher end of the market here, nothing wrong with that, but I have to be prepared, and that's the purpose this forum serves me.

Lastly. Yea I always shoot with a second (who I have no problem admitting is much better than I am). The weddings I do now are low budget and are for gaining experience. I'm actually now thinking of getting a D700 and the explore 600 that a friend of mine recommended, as well as 2 Yongnuo speed lights. Been watching some videos on how to use the flash to mimic natural light.

Really appreciate your comments, and your honest opinions. In fact, I left another forum for this very reason. People would just comment "Don't do that" or "Yea" with no real substance. Thanks much! Appreciate it.

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18134818 (external link)
Valdano, just wanted to say that I really respect that you are open to suggestions. Seems like too often folks pigeon hole themselves into a way of approaching a problem and stick with it. Of course this is not just with photography, but life.

I was just mentioning to a new colleague today that the very first non technical or artistic thing I learned about photography was the importance of reading a situation and responding in an appropriate manner. This could be bending a paperclip into the perfect shape to hold a product in position, or it could be telling a client to go to hell, and anywhere in between. You gotta be flexible but direct in your approach to what you want to do.

None of us have the perfect answer to your situation, you just have to take what has been offered up and do with it what feels right. At least you are approaching it with an honest intent ... that's what it takes, each and every time. Good luck, man.

Or, woman. ::D

Thank you for your kind words Left Hand Brisket. Often times people shy away from asking for help, or take offence when someone responds and it's not what they want to hear, but i'd rather ask and be taught, bashed and criticised by other photographers than go out into the real world and fail horribly in front of my clients who pay for a service and expect nothing short of a superb product :D.

Oh, and yea, it's man :D hahahaha. Kudos bro! Appreciate!


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LucasCK
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Nov 17, 2016 15:56 |  #24

I find in some particular churches, especially the older greek orthodox churches then flashes are a must. Sometimes there will literally be no light coming in from the windows and some ugly overhead orange lights above them. Heck, even with flash it is difficult as the walls and roof are wood.


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thoughts on no flash (weddings)
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