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Thread started 31 Aug 2016 (Wednesday) 01:18
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Can you think of reason to keep the 7DII, I (OWN) the 5dIV

 
MedicineMan4040
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Oct 03, 2016 10:08 |  #31

I've been shooting 5Dsr and 7Dii (and 1DXii) last four days birding here in Fla. To ME it has become site simple 7Dii vs 5Dsr, if it moves I like the 7Dii. If it is sitting 5Dsr. I've shot quite a few BIFs with the 5Dsr, it can be done and easily but I don't get all the wing positions I want.
Now if I'm closer I choose the 1d body for even more fps, this when I can more fully fill the frame.
Soon enough (Dec) I hope to enjoy the 1DXii + 5Dsr=Sony a99ii :)

Now on that 800mm. I know it can be done BIF but I bet 90% is tripod bound. Great for perches and blinds but most of my shooting is mobile so I agree the 500 is the perfect compromise especially with the 1.4TC.
The next best compromise for ME is one of the 150-600's.


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Oct 03, 2016 10:22 |  #32

My view on REACH: in the specific regard.

First, in another thread I put it this was.

AF > pixel density IQ > pixel density


The 7D2 was a bit of a revelation to me, as it was by FAR the highest pixel density camera I have ever used to shoot wildlife.

But, for that to be the case, my history has to include a lot of low pixel density Cameras.

Which brings me to my point. while some were espousing pixel density for "reach" I was shooting 8.5 or 10MP Cameras in APS-H format (Canon's 1.3x 1D series) and frankly because of those bodies AF, and the image quality of the sensors, I was getting better images than I could with any of the higher density APS-C bodies Canon had to offer.

When the 5D3 was released, it marked the first time that Canon put a serious AF system in something other than a 1D. There were two camps on this camera. One said this was a fantastic action and wildlife camera. A small 1D, (or in fact an EOS 3D)
Another camp felt the pixel density was too low. (only about 8MP into APS-C frame)

At the time, the only APS-C Canon competitor was the ubiquitous Canon 18MP sensor that found it's way into more Canon bodies than any other sensor in Canon's history. To me and those that think like me, NONE of those bodies was as equal to the task of getting the job done as the 5D3, or a 1D3/4. And the sensor frankly was disappointing to some from a total IQ view. ( 7D was an improvement over previous offerings but it's AF was not in the same league, and it too had that 18mp sensor)

It was not until the 7D2 was released that there was an APS-C body that could equal a 1D (or 5D3 ) for AF, and it's new sensor was better at noise handling that the tired old 18MP sensor it replaced.

There are a large number of members here that still prefer the 1D4 to the 7D2, despite the 7D2's on paper "reach" advantage. Their arguments are hard to disqualify. Obviously there are more shooting the 7D2, I don't disqualify their arguments either! It is just a different p.o.v.

5D IV AF:
It's too early for me to say with total confidence, (yet another three days of rain over this past weekend) but from everything I tried side by side thus far, the 5D4 looks to have beaten the 7D2 AF system with a significant leap in performance. Significant.

IMHO, just as it was back when I was shooting a 1D3 with only 10MP into a 1.3x sensor, I will take a beautifully noise free in focus shot over higher pixel density every day of the week.

IMHO the 5D4 will be the "better tool" is far more shooting situations than the 7D2.


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Oct 03, 2016 11:12 |  #33

drveede76 wrote in post #18144109 (external link)
Sorry for the hijack...

When you shoot the indoor sports (for me it's high school volleyball) are you setting custom WB or going with AWB and jpg? I ask because I added a 7D2 to my 6D and haven't gotten to really try it out. The 6D isn't great with indoor fluorescent lighting so I used a gray or white card to set custom WB and I have to shoot RAW so I could set proper WB in LR. Is the 7D2 good enough with AWB to shoot jpg? Maybe because of the anti flicker?

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Oct 03, 2016 11:23 |  #34

I would like to see someone who owns a 7D2 and a 5D4 shoot a series of progressively distant objects with the 7D2 and the 5D4 with a long lens say a 400mm. The test is obviously done from the same tripod, same conditions, etc., so that all nuisance variables rae removed.

In the 1st test, the subject fills the 7D2 field and does not fill the 5D4 field. The 5D4 is cropped by 1.6X linear in post to mimic the 7D2 field of view. In the 2nd test, the subject is further away, so it does not fill the 7D2 field and the same thing is done with the 5D4. The subject is progressively moved away and the test repeated.

I am curious as to when the 7D2 images become superior to the cropped 5D4 images. If a 1.6X cropped 5D4 image in the 1st test is equivalent to the 7D2, then I agree, then as long as you can get close enough that you can fill a 7D2 field, then is no need to get a 7D2. Just use a 5D4, crop in post and you are good to go. However, I suspect that for the subsequent tests, where the subject does not fill the 7D2 field, there will come a point when cropping the 5D4 image in post will yield inferior images to the 7D2 (it might even be in experiment 1). It would be great to do this test and determine this empirically instead of all the woo that goes on in FF vs. crop discussions.

Teamspeed did pretty much this test a while back with the 7D and (I believe) the 5D2 or 5D3.


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Oct 03, 2016 11:42 as a reply to  @ Scrumhalf's post |  #35

Just as long as you equalize the 5D4 to the 7D2 frame by uprezzing the 5D4 crop to the same pixel dimensions... Then do the test with a 1.4x (losing a stop of light, thus affecting ISO perf potentially)... :)

I have a suspicion that the 5D4 cropped and upsized will still be very comparable to the 7D2, almost to the point that you won't see differences in print, but I would love to see the same test.


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Oct 03, 2016 18:51 |  #36

Scrumhalf wrote in post #18147055 (external link)
I would like to see someone who owns a 7D2 and a 5D4 shoot a series of progressively distant objects with the 7D2 and the 5D4 with a long lens say a 400mm. The test is obviously done from the same tripod, same conditions, etc., so that all nuisance variables rae removed.

In the 1st test, the subject fills the 7D2 field and does not fill the 5D4 field. The 5D4 is cropped by 1.6X linear in post to mimic the 7D2 field of view. In the 2nd test, the subject is further away, so it does not fill the 7D2 field and the same thing is done with the 5D4. The subject is progressively moved away and the test repeated.

I am curious as to when the 7D2 images become superior to the cropped 5D4 images. If a 1.6X cropped 5D4 image in the 1st test is equivalent to the 7D2, then I agree, then as long as you can get close enough that you can fill a 7D2 field, then is no need to get a 7D2. Just use a 5D4, crop in post and you are good to go. However, I suspect that for the subsequent tests, where the subject does not fill the 7D2 field, there will come a point when cropping the 5D4 image in post will yield inferior images to the 7D2 (it might even be in experiment 1). It would be great to do this test and determine this empirically instead of all the woo that goes on in FF vs. crop discussions.

Teamspeed did pretty much this test a while back with the 7D and (I believe) the 5D2 or 5D3.



I can share what my experience was in doing some tests in the house. BUT, I'll state up front for all, I'm no expert, my methodology was probably flawed, etc, etc. I was just doing it for fun.

I tested my new 5D IV vs my 7D II, using a 500 f4 II and a Canon 1.4x III. My methodology...
- shot in the house, controlled, good light
- using a sturdy tripod and solid Wimberly Gimbal
- all combos have been MFAd
- I shot 5 shots for each combo (7D II bare, 7D II with 1.4x, 5D IV bare, 5D IV with 1.4 x) and picked best one from each
- Liveview (mirror locked up) and 2 sec timer, IS on (as per manual on tripod).
- All shot in RAW, and opened in Lightroom, automatic standard adjustments only (ie I didn't touch any sliders).

And, being a bird photographer, I assumed I was always focal-length limited and cropping (it's a no-brainer that when up close and not cropping, the 5d IV will win). I shot all 4 combos, picked the best shot from each, then cropped to the same field of view (assumed I was trying to get the same composition from each), then exported to the same size, 2000 pixels on the long end. When I compared the images, the results were:
- best was 7D II with 1.4x
- second best was 5D IV with 1.4x
- third was 7D II bare
- last was 5d IV bare.

So, 7D II with 1.4x is reach king with it's high pixel density (but my experience is you need great technique and solid mount to get this result...handholding will not do), but, and maybe most interestingly, the 5D IV with 1.4x beat the 7D II bare. Not surprising, the bare 5D IV, very heavily cropped, was last.

For my part, I'm keeping the 7D II for it's long reach on sunny days, but what I actually bought the 5d IV was for overcast gloomy weather where the 7D II wont do so well. I only got the 5d IV on Friday and on the weekend, in the rain and in gloomy weather, I shot this white-breasted nuthatch at ISO 3200. Not award-winning maybe but good performance for a gloomy day. The 7d II wouldn't have been able to pull this off.

So, when sunny and reach limited, I'll take the 7D II, when overcast or shooting set-up photography up close, I'll take the 5D IV. In both cases, using a 1.4x teleconverter yields good results and is better than cropping (again, with the caveat that your technique is solid).

Enjoy whatever choice you make. Hope this helps a bit. And, BTW, in my first few quick bursts at birds in flight, the AF system appears to be better than my 7D II, which is no slouch.


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Oct 03, 2016 19:08 |  #37

Sdentrem wrote in post #18147461 (external link)
I can share what my experience was in doing some tests in the house. BUT, I'll state up front for all, I'm no expert, my methodology was probably flawed, etc, etc. I was just doing it for fun.

I tested my new 5D IV vs my 7D II, using a 500 f4 II and a Canon 1.4x III. My methodology...
- shot in the house, controlled, good light
- using a sturdy tripod and solid Wimberly Gimbal
- all combos have been MFAd
- I shot 5 shots for each combo (7D II bare, 7D II with 1.4x, 5D IV bare, 5D IV with 1.4 x) and picked best one from each
- Liveview (mirror locked up) and 2 sec timer, IS on (as per manual on tripod).
- All shot in RAW, and opened in Lightroom, automatic standard adjustments only (ie I didn't touch any sliders).

And, being a bird photographer, I assumed I was always focal-length limited and cropping (it's a no-brainer that when up close and not cropping, the 5d IV will win). I shot all 4 combos, picked the best shot from each, then cropped to the same field of view (assumed I was trying to get the same composition from each), then exported to the same size, 2000 pixels on the long end. When I compared the images, the results were:
- best was 7D II with 1.4x
- second best was 5D IV with 1.4x
- third was 7D II bare
- last was 5d IV bare.

So, 7D II with 1.4x is reach king with it's high pixel density (but my experience is you need great technique and solid mount to get this result...handholding will not do), but, and maybe most interestingly, the 5D IV with 1.4x beat the 7D II bare. Not surprising, the bare 5D IV, very heavily cropped, was last.

For my part, I'm keeping the 7D II for it's long reach on sunny days, but what I actually bought the 5d IV was for overcast gloomy weather where the 7D II wont do so well. I only got the 5d IV on Friday and on the weekend, in the rain and in gloomy weather, I shot this white-breasted nuthatch at ISO 3200. Not award-winning maybe but good performance for a gloomy day. The 7d II wouldn't have been able to pull this off.

So, when sunny and reach limited, I'll take the 7D II, when overcast or shooting set-up photography up close, I'll take the 5D IV.

Enjoy whatever choice you make. Hope this helps a bit. And, BTW, in my first few quick bursts at birds in flight, the AF system appears to be better than my 7D II, which is no slouch.
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More or less the order I'd expect things to fall out in...partially why I'm strongly considering the 5DIV/7DII combo for my kit.


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Oct 03, 2016 19:17 as a reply to  @ Snydremark's post |  #38

Yes, I agree, Eric!

For the same lens/TC combo, i.e., an apples to apples comparison, the 7D2 is superior to a cropped 5d4 at the same uprezzed size. Which is what I would expect.


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Oct 03, 2016 19:27 |  #39

Snydremark wrote in post #18147472 (external link)
More or less the order I'd expect things to fall out in...partially why I'm strongly considering the 5DIV/7DII combo for my kit.

Great report and thanks for the effort.
Lots to take away from your studies.
That the 7Dii does so well with a TC speaks loudlly about how good the 7Dii sensor is considering TCs reputation for decreasing IQ.
That the 5Div has a better AF system. So far I'm actually doing better BIF (number of keepers) with the 7Dii over the 1DXii...but I've been
using the 7Dii since available/still wrestling with the 1DXii.

I think bottom line is that both are fantastic machines, that the 7Dii (almost 2 years old now? is that right?) is still gunning with the bigger boys.

Last thing I'll take away is my own fabulation of all the above and that is I'm already looking forward to the 7Diii :)


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Oct 03, 2016 19:52 |  #40

MedicineMan4040 wrote in post #18147501 (external link)
Great report and thanks for the effort.
Lots to take away from your studies.
That the 7Dii does so well with a TC speaks loudlly about how good the 7Dii sensor is considering TCs reputation for decreasing IQ.
That the 5Div has a better AF system. So far I'm actually doing better BIF (number of keepers) with the 7Dii over the 1DXii...but I've been
using the 7Dii since available/still wrestling with the 1DXii.

I think bottom line is that both are fantastic machines, that the 7Dii (almost 2 years old now? is that right?) is still gunning with the bigger boys.

Last thing I'll take away is my own fabulation of all the above and that is I'm already looking forward to the 7Diii :)

Thanks for the effort goes to Sdentrem; I was just commenting on his work :)


- Eric S.: My Birds/Wildlife (external link) (7D MkII/5D IV, Canon 10-22 f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105L f/4 IS, Canon 70-200L f/2.8 IS MkII, Canon 100-400L f/4.5-5.6 IS I/II)
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Oct 03, 2016 20:14 |  #41

MedicineMan4040 wrote in post #18147501 (external link)
Great report and thanks for the effort.
Lots to take away from your studies.
That the 7Dii does so well with a TC speaks loudlly about how good the 7Dii sensor is considering TCs reputation for decreasing IQ.
That the 5Div has a better AF system. So far I'm actually doing better BIF (number of keepers) with the 7Dii over the 1DXii...but I've been
using the 7Dii since available/still wrestling with the 1DXii.

I think bottom line is that both are fantastic machines, that the 7Dii (almost 2 years old now? is that right?) is still gunning with the bigger boys.

Last thing I'll take away is my own fabulation of all the above and that is I'm already looking forward to the 7Diii :)

Yes, the 7D II is a great camera. I have over 150K clicks on mine. In my experience though, you need 2 things to make it shine...good technique and good light. To get truly sharp images, my experience is that you need very nice directional lighting (gloomy days are tough on image quality...as on any photos that need detail), and your technique has to be very good...lens on a stable platform (anything 400mm+...beanbag or sturdy tripod), face mashed into the back of the camera for stability, and end of lens held steady. For critical bird photography, if I do these, I get tack sharp images. It's also very croppable with a 1.4x...a big plus.

Here's the original and a crop of a Least Bittern as an example (and a rarity in Nova Scotia). Taken with a solid tripod, spread eagle close to the ground, face mashed into the back of the eyepiece, and putting pressure downwards on the lenshood...all critical with the 1.4x in particular.

Also, agree strongly on a 7d III...even a quick refresh 7D IIR with the new 80D sensor and no AA filter as a dedicated wildlife/sports camera would be a killer camera at 10 FPS.


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Oct 03, 2016 20:40 |  #42

Scrumhalf wrote in post #18147483 (external link)
Yes, I agree, Eric!

For the same lens/TC combo, i.e., an apples to apples comparison, the 7D2 is superior to a cropped 5d4 at the same uprezzed size. Which is what I would expect.

In the right light... ;)

I like to shoot two bodies, and with both of these being the "smaller" non 1D form factor, It will be easier than ever to pack both.

What I am going to really like about the 5D4 is shooting in conditions where the 7D2 is simply not going to shine. Which for wildlife, can be a lot of conditions.


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Oct 03, 2016 20:42 |  #43

Because of superior noise characteristics?


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Oct 04, 2016 00:40 |  #44

IMO you rarely would want to carry three bodies. (Or at least an old guy like me does not.)
I am going to sell my 5D2 and maybe my 1D4.
I am starting to feel comfortable with my 5DIV as it may be the best overall body I have owned.
I have not owned a 1.6 crop body, but Canon's 100-400II with a 1.4X gives me all the reach I need most of the time.

I would keep the 7DII until you replace it. One body is not enough. :-)


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Oct 04, 2016 00:49 |  #45

Tapeman wrote in post #18147749 (external link)
IMO you rarely would want to carry three bodies. (Or at least an old guy like me does not.)
I am going to sell my 5D2 and maybe my 1D4.
I am starting to feel comfortable with my 5DIV as it may be the best overall body I have owned.
I have not owned a 1.6 crop body, but Canon's 100-400II with a 1.4X gives me all the reach I need most of the time.

I would keep the 7DII until you replace it. One body is not enough. :-)

Sadly my wife does not agree.

Not referring to cameras... she's fine with that




  
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