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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 05 Nov 2016 (Saturday) 09:05
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Canon DPP and Light Room Equivalent Settings

 
Roxie2401
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Nov 05, 2016 09:05 |  #1

I'm using DPP 3.15 and LR 6.7. When I view RAW files in DPP they appear tack sharp but not so in LR. I know that DPP "generated a high quality" image but I'm not sure LR does the same in either the Library or Develop modules. About the only thing I can find is that the default Sharpening setting my not be the same when opening the image.

DPP Default Sharping: (Strength = 5; Fineness = 7; Threshold = 1) and LR Default Sharping in Develop Module (not Libarary): (Amount = 25; Radius = 1.0; Detail = 25; Masking = 0)

Does anyone know if these are equivalent? This has been bothering me that LR is not displaying the same quality image and I was wondering if I'm missing an option/preference somewhere. My frustration is that its the same monitor, etc.

As an aside, since I have RAW files from my original Canon 40D, 7D MK I and 5D MK III I have stayed with DPP 3; should I upgrade to DPP 4? Or would I have to put both on the computer?




  
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Nov 05, 2016 09:59 |  #2

DPP will retain the camera settings in it's previews whereas LR uses it's own default settings(which can be changed). Strength 5 in DPP is pretty high and LR 25 is fairly low, you'll need to bump LR's strength setting higher to match DPP's strength 5.

DPP 4 is considerably better than DPP 3 and both programs can be installed simultaneously. DPP 4 will support your 7D and 5D3 but not your 40D so you will need both.


Mark

  
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Nov 05, 2016 12:24 |  #3

As well as simply looking at the sharpening, you need to understand that DPP and LR work in very different ways. DPP being Canon's software is able to precisely match the in camera JPEG processing, so that the default output from DPP is identical to the in camera conversion, including the picture style, which changes the colour/contrast profile used for the conversion, as well as the sharpness, contrast and other in camera adjustable parameters. So the Canon default is to start with what the Canon engineers/software developers think is a correctly processed ready to use image. Adobe on the other hand has a very different view on what a default conversion should look like. Adobe starts with a default profile (mostly equivalent to picture styles in Canon) which uses a generally lower contrast curve and is designed to produce more realistic colours. As well as this all of the default settings that are adjustable with the sliders tend to also start out at a much lower more restrained level. The idea with Adobe is that their default will simply be a starting point from which you will apply your own adjustments, based on YOUR preferences. Adobe do allow you to change the colour profile and since IIRC LR4 have had a series of camera matching profiles, that are designed to match those available in the camera's default conversions. They vary in availability between different cameras, and are only available for RAW files. For Canon DSLRs you have Camera Landscape, Camera Portrait, Camera Standard, and Camera Faithful, to mimic the equivalent Canon Picture styles.

The other thing that Adobe does in LR is to make it really easy to make your own presets, that can be applied to all sorts of things that you might want to do. So in this case once you have found your prefered default conversion settings for your type of photography, you can save them as a preset, and then you can make the preset the default. Default presets can be chosen by Camera, camera serial number (so that you can have different defaults for two different cameras of the same model) and even by ISO value, or any combination of these choices! If you occasionally do different types of shooting, say normally you are a landscape shooter, but sometimes you shoot portraits, then you can save a portrait preset, with a totally different set of saved parameters, and then as part of the image import process you can have LR apply that preset to the images, instead of the defaults. Although you can still have LR go back and reset the image to default, or just manually apply any other preset that you might want to use. So it is quite easy to make adjustments in LR until your image looks the way you want it, even if that is just like a Canon default conversion, and save it as a preset. Since DPP and LR/ACR use completely different methods to convert the RAW data to a viewable image you might only be able to get a close match, rather than an exact one between the different programs.

Another great thing about LR is that when you save a preset you can choose just which controls it is applied to, you can have all of the current settings, or just pick those that need changing, so maybe a colour profile, along with the sharpening and NR adjustments. The when you apply it it only changes the parameters that are set, and not the others. This is important because the presets save the actual values that will be set, not the amount of change. So if you were to save a preset with exposure set to o and apply it where you already have the slider set to -1 it will change it back to zero. Controls that are not set though are simply ignored.

Finally I use lots and lots of presets, but they are all ones I have saved myself, so that they do the jobs that I want done. I would never bother downloading presets, and would certainly never pay for one, since all a preset is is a list of slider settings, and maybe a list of points on a tone curve.

Alan


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tzalman
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Nov 05, 2016 12:54 |  #4

They are entirely not equivalent. Not only does DPP change its default sharpening according to the Picture Style you have chosen, it also changes it if you have made changes in-camera. LR's sharpening defaults remain the same no matter what camera profile you set. Also, DPP sharpening is intended to be a one-time thing; LR Develop module sharpening was conceived by the designers as the first step in a three step process - first a slight global sharpening to counteract the loss in sharpness caused by the filter in front of the sensor, second localized reinforcement of the sharpening and third output sharpening that is adjusted according to any resizing done to the rendered image. (Not everybody uses LR this way, but that was the original intention and explains why the Develop default might seem mild, while DPP's tends to be "whiz-bang" and often excessive, to my taste.)

But it is more complicated than that. DPP has some sort of USM sharpening, although we don't know what the numbers mean and we even are only assuming that the terms "Strength" and "Fineness" are the more conventional terms "Amount" and "Radius". That's o.k., we don't know much about the algorithms behind LR's sharpening either. (When I set Radius 0.5, it doesn't sharpen only half a pixel; it just changes the rate of fall-off from the edge pixel of the change in contrast.) But there is an even more basic difference between the two applications: LR Develop sharpening is a blend between two different kinds of sharpening, USM and Deconvolution, the proportions of the blend being controlled by the Detail slider - 0 is all USM, 100 is all Deconvolution and 50 is probably half and half. DPP does a different sort of Deconvolution sharpening separately in its Digital Lens Optimizer, but only for Canon lenses.

Then there are all sorts of other factors. The basic Raw conversion engine (unique to each app) has a certain level of sharpness vs. smoothness built in to it. Also, the sharpening is inter-active with the noise reduction. And in LR it is also affected by Clarity and Dehazing. Etc., etc., etc.

There are no easy "one size fits all" formulas. You have to learn what you like and then work enough with the program(s) that you can achieve it. (Until some critic tells you it looks terrible and you are doing it all wrong.)


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Roxie2401
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Nov 05, 2016 15:02 |  #5

Mark, Alan, Elie: Thank you so much. This is going to take a while to digest.

I had tried some of the Canon Pre-sets but found none of them made any changes to the "Sharpening" sliders in LR so that was why I was focusing on that being the big difference when switching between the two programs to view the same RAW file.

If the DPP Sharpening Strength of 5 is relatively high, I wonder if Canon choosing that as the default was intentional. Too bad there isn't a simple way to create a profile in LR (like a copy) to match the DPP directly ---- obviously I need a better understanding of "Profile" vs. "Preset" but I thought Profiles were used for soft proof and printing. And for the most part, I have been importing using the Canon Standard preset. (Can you tell I'm really getting confused?)

Loved Elie' last comment - now to load DPP 4 and see where it takes me. I'm trying to remember but when 4 first came out, I think there were a lot of hold-outs staying with DPP 3. Wonder what percentage of users stay with DPP vs. LR these days. Also, does DPP 3 support new lenses, like MK II versions?

Again, thanks for the great input and suggestions. I have a lot of research to do......




  
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Roxie2401
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Nov 05, 2016 16:54 |  #6

A follow-up question: If I have in the Develop Module under Camera Calibration a Profile set, "Camera Standard" for example, is that automatically applied during import? Or, do I have to also set the "Apply During Import" to Camera Standard ?

Which ever is correct, can it be set as the Input default somewhere?


Obviously converting from DPP to LR, now that the RAW files have already been imported, I apparently am going to have to go back and apply the preset to all of them, right? Is there a way to do this by selecting all the image files and applying "Camera Stardard?"

Sorry for the questions. Its that in one place in LR they refer to it as Camera Calibration Profile (Develop Module) and Saved Preset (Library Module) and Apply During Import Develop Setting (Import Screen). I'm guessing these are all the same.

UPDATE: In the Develop Module I can apply the Camera Calibration Profile to all files by Sync and checking Calibration. Works! But in the Library Module I don't seem to be able to do the same thing with the Preset - apply it to all selected files. What am I missing?




  
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tonylong
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Nov 05, 2016 23:41 |  #7

Hey, I'll chime in!

First off, I want to voice my agreement/support for the other posts that have contributed! In essence, yes, Canon and Adobe do take different approaches to converting and developing the Raw data, and it is noticeable right "out of the box".This is especially visible if you have your camera set to standard Picture Styles -- they apply amounts of Contrast, Saturation, Sharpening, and other in-camera settings. designed to produce out-of camera jpegs of "acceptable" quality, and also as the "default" settings for bring a Raw file into DPP. Adobe products don't have those built-in adjustments, in fact, if you use the Default Adobe Profile settings (they call it "Standard", but it's not the same as the Canon "Standard" Picture Style) then the result will tend to look "flat" because it hasn't applied the built-in adjustments to Contrast, Saturation and such.

Now, as others have said, there are Adobe "profiles" that you can apply that help to address these things as a "starting point" for working in Lightroom or Adobe Camera Raw.

However, one thing that I and some others have chosen to do is to set our cameras to a Picture Style, either Neutral or Faithful, and to dial down our settings for Contrast, Saturation and Sharpening all the way back. This way, our "Straight Out Of Camera" shots come close to matching the Adobe "default" if you open them in DPP. And then, if you do use DPP, you can tweak things by changing the Picture Style and the adjustments as needed. In fact, my advice to those who are learning and comparing DPP is to either do the above with the in-camera settings, or else in DPP to do the switch, change the Picture Style and settings so, yeah you will start out with a "flat" image, but then you can move forward, and match your adjustments in DPP with those in Lightroom!

Of course, you can only use one Raw converter to process/develop/conver​t your Raw files, so if you open and work on a Raw file in DPP, your edits will not "show" in LR or other Raw software unless you convert them to tiffs or jpegs!

Now, it can be said that there are "different strokes for different folks"! Some shooters are happy with Straight Out Of Camera (SOOC) shots, they shoot jpegs, of, if they wish, can open a Raw file in DPP with all the in-camera settings applied, and they can be happy as clams, no need to fumble about with the Raw workflow!

Well, like I said, "different strokes". Heck, back in the film days (and early jpeg-only digicam days), I'd drop off a roll with "one hour photos", get shots back, no muss, no fuss! But, when dealing with "serious" photographs, well, things changed, I didn't have a darkroom, so I'd work with labs who could work on my images, starting with darkroom work, then stepping through the negatives and then the prints!

With digital, things have become "simpler" and more "hands on", what with our digital cameras, digital images, and nice computers, and there is the fact that we can become more "picky" as far as what to print! And sure, we can be out taking photos, jpegs with decent settings, then walk into one of the modern "one hour" photo places, hand them a memory card, and walk out with prints!

But, as I moved on with digital, I became aware of the fact that many of my images would benefit from some "processing". To various degrees, sure, but still, I became aware of the fact that my jpegs had "limits" as to processing them. It was during that time that my attention became drawn to the filed of Raw shooting/processing, and I ended up with my first DSLR. Adobe had come out with a good quality Raw processor bundled with Photoshop and Bridge, so I latched onto PS CS2 (Lightroom had not come out) and my whole workflow began to flow! So, when Lightroom came out, I started with the Beta release, but once some updates were made, I made the leap to LR 1.2, and that kicked my workflow into gear!

One more thought!

A lot of people are bothered with needing to process/edit our photos, especially the idea of Raw processing. Well, I can understand that, but to me it leads to the concept of the "digital darkroom" -- we can approach our Raw images as digital "captures", then bring them into the darkroom (our Raw developer/converter of choice) and the results are digital negatives, that after whatever tweaks will improve them, can be transformed into usable images, good for prints, Internet sharing, all that jazz!


Tony
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tzalman
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Nov 06, 2016 06:44 |  #8

Too bad there isn't a simple way to create a profile in LR (like a copy) to match the DPP directly ---- obviously I need a better understanding of "Profile" vs. "Preset" but I thought Profiles were used for soft proof and printing. And for the most part, I have been importing using the Canon Standard preset. (Can you tell I'm really getting confused?)
A follow-up question: If I have in the Develop Module under Camera Calibration a Profile set, "Camera Standard" for example, is that automatically applied during import? Or, do I have to also set the "Apply During Import" to Camera Standard ?

Lets start with a quick (very quick) outline of the definitions of some basic terms.

Profiles. There are different types of profiles:

1. International, standardized and rigidly defined and controlled profiles that are a sort of international graphic currency, backed by a "bank" called the ICC and which are used to facilitate the exchange of images. they have names like sRGB or Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. When I receive an image with an embedded sRGB profile, I know the parameters of the color space in which the image is contained - the "primaries" (the brightest shades of red, green and blue possible in that space) and the primaries in turn define the limits and size of the color space (its "gamut"). The profile will also contain info about how the progression of tones from black, through greys, to white is curved, the Tonal Response Curve. By knowing these things I can know how to display the image, how to print it, and how to convert it to a different space if needed. A Raw file is not in a color space because it is not a color image, but when we output a colored tif or jpg from the Raw converter, we will want it to be in one of the standard spaces and with the corresponding standard profile.

2. Device profiles: These are profiles that describe how a given device - a camera, a printer, a monitor, a TV, etc., handles color - either capturing it as a camera or scanner, or outputting it into another medium, like LCD particles or drops of ink. There are also generic device profiles for groups of items, like all the units of a particular camera model. How accurate they are for a single unit in the group can be quite variable, but not everybody needs maximal accuracy and for most of us "pretty close" can be close enough. Once the deviations and limitations in the performance of the device are known, we can know what corrections can be made to bring the colors more into line with the ICC standards.

So here we are talking about Camera Profiles. Adobe and other third party companies get a unit or two of each new camera and test it by photographing a chart with known colors under controlled illumination and examining the Raw data. From that they can build a profile. The profile (Adobe's version is nowadays called Adobe Standard) is unique to that model. Canon, on the other hand, doesn't need to do that. because they are making the sensors and their engineers have, from before production started, specified all the characteristics of the sensor - the spectral response curves of the silicon substratum, the light transmission band widths of the colored micro=filters, etc. - they have already determined what the basic profile should be and their quality control seeks to keep the cameras within the tolerances of the profile.

However, about ten years ago Canon decided that although professional product, fashion or artworks photographers might want accurate colors, most people want colors that are bigger than reality - brighter, stronger. So they started offering a choice of jpg processing pipelines; Picture Styles like Standard, Landscape or Portrait, with "jazzier" colors than the basic profile (called "Neutral"). And a couple years later, when people made it known that they wanted their LR conversions to look like the Picture Styles that the cameras and DPP were doing, Adobe started doing variations on the basic profile also - Camera Standard, Camera Landscape, Camera Portrait, etc.

If I have in the Develop Module under Camera Calibration a Profile set, "Camera Standard" for example, is that automatically applied during import?

No, only if it it is the default setting. LR comes from "the factory" with Adobe Standard being the default, but the default is very easily changed to whatever you want it to be. Or you could make a preset that contains a particular profile.

Now for presets: A preset is nothing more than a saved list of LR Develop module slider settings. The settings can be any ones; from the Basic section, the Detail (Sharpening and Noise Reduction) section, Effects section, etc., or any combination of them. It is merely a fast way to set a dozen or more different editing parameters with one click. Adobe supplies a bunch of presets together with the software (in the left side panel of Develop) or you can make your own. And you can even specify a preset to be automatically applied to all the images in a group that is imported together. So one of your home-made presets could include a profile setting.


Elie / אלי

  
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Roxie2401
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Nov 06, 2016 11:43 |  #9

Thanks for all the great input.

But now I am feeling really stupid. I can see the Profile: Camera Standard, etc. in the Develop module. And if I understood the above, that is based on a hardware input "Canon to LR"

But how do I get the same effect (Camera Calibration) in the Library Module? Is there a Calibration Profile in Library or is this were it is now called a Preset? And, should I have downloaded from somewhere a set of Canon Presets that mimic the Camera Calibration Profile (Canon Standard, Canon Faithful, Canon Landscape, etc.)? Are these available?

In searching the LR Help file and other sources, it appears that some are using the term "Profile" and "Preset" interchangeably - which I suspect is not correct based on Elie's description.

Thanks, don't mean to drag this out - just very confused between the Develop and Library Modules, not to mention how to change the Input Default settings.




  
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ashleykaryl
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Nov 06, 2016 12:43 as a reply to  @ Roxie2401's post |  #10

You set the profile inside the Camera Calibration area of the Develop module with LR and the effect will then be visible in Library mode as well.

On a side note every image requires a different degree of sharpening that will vary according to the subject matter, personal taste and end usage, however blanket sharpening at the outset is not a good practice.


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Nov 06, 2016 12:47 |  #11

I'm a bit confused, Roxie -- are you saying that if you go to the Develop module, and change the Profile, and then change to the Library module that the Profile adjustments don't show up?


Tony
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Roxie2401
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Nov 06, 2016 15:31 |  #12

Tony,

I think I have it figured out - somewhat. First, yes, if I set the Profile in Develop module, that change does appear in the Library module.

What was confusing me was by setting the Camera Calibration to Camera Standard, when I looked at the Library Module, it said the Saved Preset was "Custom."

But if I set a Preset in the Develop Module, say Canon Faithful, it would appear in the Library Module as the Saved Preset. But, and this was the confusing, when I would then look at the Camera Calibration in Develop, it had changed to Camera Faithful, too.

So, to me there seemed a disconnect between setting Camera Calibration Profile and seeing Custom Preset but setting a Preset in Develop and seeing both the Camera Calibration & the Saved Preset change to match. That was where I was really getting confused between a "Profile" Change for Camera Calibration and a Saved Preset showing up as "Custom" in the calibration change but then seeing the Preset affect the Calibration & Library Module "Saved Preset."

Hope I explained that - and yes, again changing the Camera Calibration Profile does show up in the images in Library.


As an aside, this whole confusion may have been that since the first place I view Import images is Library, I didn't realize I had to go to Develop to change the Camera default. So, is there a place to set the Camera Calibration on Import, i.e., Do I have to manually set "Apply During Import" each time (and that again, appears to be a "Preset" not a Profile setting) so my files import as Camera Standard?

Sorry if I have not stated this correctly.




  
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tonylong
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Nov 06, 2016 16:32 |  #13

As to the first part, glad to get things clear!

As to the second part, I'm not clear as to what you are doing -- you say that in the Develop module you choose a preset, and it changes the camera Calibration setting and also the Library "Saved Preset" setting, I'm not sure what the trouble is except for the different terms used and that if you want details, well, you do need to go to the Develop module.

As to setting things on Import, you can choose a preset in the Import module and that will apply to all the photos imported in the batch you are importing. So, if you have a preset that incorporates a Calibration preset than it gets applied. Without doing that it stays with the Default, although you can easily change your default in the Develop Module: open an image, select the Calibration setting you wish to use, then press Alt (Opt in the Mac) and select the button on the lower right to use as the "Default".

I can't get on my LR right now, but if you have more specific questions, others can chime in!


Tony
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Roxie2401
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Post edited over 3 years ago by Roxie2401. (2 edits in all)
     
Nov 06, 2016 16:49 |  #14

tonylong wrote in post #18177559 (external link)
As to the first part, glad to get things clear!

As to the second part, I'm not clear as to what you are doing -- you say that in the Develop module you choose a preset, and it changes the camera Calibration setting and also the Library "Saved Preset" setting, I'm not sure what the trouble is except for the different terms used and that if you want details, well, you do need to go to the Develop module.

Tony, what was confusing me was that when I set Camera Calibration in Develop, the Library Module shows "Saved Preset" as "Custom" not Camera Standard. But if I selected a Preset in Develop, that preset would show in both the Camera Calibration (Develop) & Saved Preset (Library) ----- just didn't seem consistent. If Camera Standard was selected for Camera Calibration, why wouldn't it show as the Saved Preset.........I'm OK with it, but showing as Custom rather than Camera Standard in Library was a little misleading.

tonylong wrote in post #18177559 (external link)
As to setting things on Import, you can choose a preset in the Import module and that will apply to all the photos imported in the batch you are importing. So, if you have a preset that incorporates a Calibration preset than it gets applied. Without doing that it stays with the Default, although you can easily change your default in the Develop Module: open an image, select the Calibration setting you wish to use, then press Alt (Opt in the Mac) and select the button on the lower right to use as the "Default".

From what you say above, it appears there is not a way to have "Develop Settings, i.e., a specific Preset" for Apply During Import as a default --- it looks to me that this has to be specified on each use of the Import. This is the only open issue - can there be a Default for Apply During Import?

I guess it boils down to I like SOOC and want to import as Camera Standard, being lazy, was hoping I could set it as the Import default.




  
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tonylong
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Nov 06, 2016 17:24 |  #15

Roxie2401 wrote in post #18177573 (external link)
From what you say above, it appears there is not a way to have "Develop Settings, i.e., a specific Preset" for Apply During Import as a default --- it looks to me that this has to be specified on each use of the Import. This is the only open issue - can there be a Default for Apply During Import?

I guess it boils down to I like SOOC and want to import as Camera Standard, being lazy, was hoping I could set it as the Import default.

Did you note that I (and others) have said that in the Develop module, after doing settings that you would consider "default" for all Imports, press Alt/Opt and select the button to "Use as Default"? Try that (including setting the Calibration profile) and tell us how it works for you!


Tony
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Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.