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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 10 Nov 2016 (Thursday) 01:30
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5D mark IV shutter speed

 
amfoto1
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Nov 10, 2016 23:00 |  #16

When the original 7D came out with 18MP, Canon published a white paper about increased sensitivity to camera shake blur due to the "more crowded sensor" and recommended setting slightly higher than usual shutter speeds to offset that. It's probably the same with the 30MP 5DIV, compared to using a 22MP 5DIII or 20MP 6D. So, yes, you probably would do well to use higher shutter speeds with it, too... though to be honest I wouldn't much problem hand holding a 24-70mm at 1/125 on full frame. 70-200 at 200mm, I'd try to use 1/320 or so. But if that's an image stabilized lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use 1/200 or even slower.

I agree with other responses that higher shutter speeds should be no problem, if higher usable ISO that's been reported for 5DIV is true.

Depending upon exactly what you're shooting, also think about subject motion.... that can call for higher shutter speeds, too... and IS is no help with it either.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Left Handed Brisket. (3 edits in all)
     
Nov 11, 2016 05:59 |  #17

http://www.pocket-lint.com …-the-30-megapixel-monster (external link)
Look at the chapter about image quality

this guy does a terrible job of describing the issue:

Saying that, the Mk IV's higher resolution proposition is something you'll want to contemplate carefully. There's a phenomenon that can render moving subjects less sharp than if shot with equivalent lower resolution cameras. It's because at any one point that subject will be motioning between more "pixels" on the sensor, which will influence what the camera sees at the moment the shutter is fired. Go with a shutter speed too slow and you'll suffer the consequences. In short, you'll need to use a faster shutter speed if you're moving up the resolution range. And that, typically, means using a higher ISO sensitivity.

If we could somehow replicate exactly a shot showing motion blur (camera or subject) between a 15 MP camera and a 30 MP camera, and output the image to an 8"x10" image, what would be the result in regards to the motion blur?

IMO 300ppi is the maximum any common printer/output ever needs to resolve the detail present in the image. That tells us we are sending a 2400px x 3000px image to the printer. Many printer/output combos (inkjet) would do just fine with 200ppi ... 1600px x 2000px.

15mp = 4416 x 3312
30mp = 6720 x 4480

Both have plenty of pixels to produce sharp output. I have never put together this kind of test, but my experience tells me that the final output (the print) from each camera would look the same.

The TDP above article says: Magnify the image being captured and problems not visible before become apparent.

His is a much more accurate description of the issue. Is motion blur more apparent on a higher megapixel camera? yes, it is, but ONLY when you MAGNIFY the image. That magnification can come through zooming in to 100 percent, or it could come from printing a 22" x 15" (300ppi) or a 33" x 22" (200ppi) print of the full frame image.

Steven_nl wrote in post #18181017 (external link)
Would not natter if the blur is caused by the subject.
I actually own the xpro2 24mp. And i own the Mark III.

Not sure I understand what you mean by output.

Output is the end result of taking a picture, it is what anyone other than the photographer views. It could be a 800 or 2000 pixel wide JPG or it could be am 8x10 or large format print.

So, IMO, if you intend to use virtually every pixel of the camera (or crop 1:1) for your output you should definitely consider using a higher shutter speed to limit any camera or subject movement. If your output is more typical of most photographer's work, don't worry about it.

a good exercise for you might be to take identical pictures with your III and IV ... motion blur unnecessary. Then with both images open, zoom in to 100 percent on the III to a certain area, then see where the same framing on the IV leaves you on magnification. My guess is 66.7 percent.


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hqqns
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Post edited over 2 years ago by hqqns. (2 edits in all)
     
Nov 11, 2016 06:09 |  #18

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18181524 (external link)
this guy does a terrible job of describing the issue:

If we could somehow replicate exactly a shot showing motion blur (camera or subject) between a 15 MP camera and a 30 MP camera, and output the image to an 8"x10" image, what would be the result in regards to the motion blur?

IMO 300ppi is the maximum any common printer/output ever needs to resolve the detail present in the image. That tells us we are sending a 2400px x 3000px image to the printer. Many printer/output combos (inkjet) would do just fine with 200ppi ... 1600px x 2000px.

15mp = 4416 x 3312
30mp = 6720 x 4480

I have never put together this kind of test, but my experience tells me that the final output (the print) from each camera would look the same.

The above article says: Magnify the image being captured and problems not visible before become apparent.

His is a much more accurate description of the issue. Is motion blur more apparent on a higher megapixel camera? yes, it is, but ONLY when you MAGNIFY the image. That magnification can come through zooming in to 100 percent, or it could come from printing a 22" x 15" (300ppi) or a 33" x 22" (200ppi) print of the full frame image.

Output is the end result of taking a picture, it is what anyone other than the photographer views. It could be a 800 or 2000 pixel wide JPG or it could be am 8x10 or large format print.

So, IMO, if you intend to use virtually every pixel of the camera (or crop 1:1) for your output you should definitely consider using a higher shutter speed to limit any camera or subject movement. If your output is more typical of most photographer's work, don't worry about it.

That's all good and fine, but for the most of us, we don't know what we want to do with the image, so what's the most logical thing to do? We try and get the best combination of SS, Aperture and noise so that we have the best opportunity to get what we want from the image. Recommending to go for second best doesn't help. I.e. saying that it doesn't matter.

The great thing with an improvement in ISO performance is that we need to compromise less, and get the image that we want, or at least have a better opportunity to do so at least. We can do that now by increasing SS or DOF. That's obviously not needed if you're in a studio but that's not what the majority do.

In regards to output, it's not always on a piece of paper but it's increasingly on better laptop, computer, projector and tablet screens. And if we can crop the shot and it still looks good on these, then why not 'worry about it' ? Ask any birder if they don't want that per pixel sharpness!


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Nov 11, 2016 06:21 |  #19

hqqns wrote in post #18181527 (external link)
for the most of us, we don't know what we want to do with the image

really?

sure their is an odd image that I thought was just going to be a snapshot and I later decided to make into a big enlargement, but for the VAST majority of my shots I know the potential output before i even put the card in the camera or mount an appropriate lens.


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Nov 11, 2016 06:53 |  #20

shot at 1/160 at 70mm.


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Nov 11, 2016 06:54 |  #21

shot at 1/125 70mm


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Nov 11, 2016 07:00 |  #22

my first impression is camera shake.

point where ceiling tiles meet

point where the light grey lines on the wall meet near the projector screen

"box" on the wall between the two men's shoulders on the left

all look less sharp in the second image.


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Nov 11, 2016 07:29 |  #23

yep. which brings me back to my first question.
I'd be the first to afmitt I was shooting with one hand or in a casual way, but I was not.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Nov 11, 2016 08:22 as a reply to  @ Steven_nl's post |  #24

If these are full frame images reduced to web resolution, then any lack of sharpness due to camera shake would be present with either the 5DIV or 5DC ... if the only difference was the camera body.


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Nov 11, 2016 09:03 |  #25

so you rule out the possibility that with the Mark IV a lttile bit of movement is enough to give a blurry image compared to camera's with less desity of pixels on the sensor?
Or maybe the differeces will only be noticable when blown up a lot?


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Nov 11, 2016 10:17 |  #26

This is the beauty of the new sensors

Put it in AV and crank up the ISO

6400 is sooooooooo clean. You can get faster shutter speeds and not have to suffer the consequences we had to deal with on bodies like a 5D2

Set it up in your custom settings to with auto ISO. Easy to control these things with custom settings and auto mode use.

Go read your manual, set your camera up and you wont have any problems at all. SS at 1/250 if you need to. Its not a problem with the new sensors let the ISO do its own thing because you can set parameters for ISO as well

The camera is very very smart. Smarter than you.

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Nov 11, 2016 10:34 |  #27

Steven_nl wrote in post #18181647 (external link)
Or maybe the differeces will only be noticable when blown up a lot?

A higher density sensor will require a faster minimum shutter speed in order to show the ADDITIONAL detail that the extra pixels capture. When you're looking at a web sized image, or even a small print, any blur that you see is not the result of extra megapixels, just plain old regular blur.


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Nov 11, 2016 10:43 |  #28

Steven_nl wrote in post #18181647 (external link)
Or maybe the differeces will only be noticable when blown up a lot?

yup!


Given the same sensor size, same lens focal length, same distance to subject, same amount of subject or camera movement, etc. then given you are not talking about output that exceeds the lower resolution camera.


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Nov 11, 2016 10:48 |  #29

BTW

Not seeing this with the 1Dx2 sensor. It is 10 Mps less. I think its about as perfect a sensor as Canon has ever used. Can easily get tack sharp files with a 70-200 @ 1/60. I get that a 30 MP sensor would need a bit more SS. Crank up that ISO and increase SS....Thats why we have the new sensors.

I would also be sure you are using AF system to its fullest advantage


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Nov 11, 2016 10:51 |  #30

Steven_nl wrote in post #18181563 (external link)
shot at 1/125 70mm
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./showthread.php?p=181​81563&i=i93378024
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras

Thanks for this example

This looks like 2 things

Pilot error. you focus hit the Glass and reflection v/s the subject. Be sure you are using the AF system properly. Dont let the camera decide where to put focus. Camera when to the highlight and reflection here.

Possibly you need to calibrate lens and be sure they are calibrated properly. Your camera focused here. Except it hit the glass.


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5D mark IV shutter speed
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