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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 13 Jan 2017 (Friday) 14:49
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80d or glass

 
ericz34
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Jan 13, 2017 14:49 |  #1

I currently have a t6i
24m 2.8
50m 1.8
18-55 kit
18-135 kit

My style of photography has developed into landscape photography and although I'd like a FF body it's out of my budget with FF lens prices (about 2k budget if I really stretch it for lens and body). So I was considering an 80D because of its nicer DOF. Or just get some nicer glass which is usually the more obvious option, I just want a nicer body haha. I was thinking the sigma 18-35 1.8 and maybe the rokinon 16m 2.0 but I would only use this one for Astrophotography.
Thoughts, ideas, suggestions?
Thanks in advance!




  
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3Rotor
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Jan 13, 2017 14:56 |  #2

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "nicer DOF."

If it's landscape photography you're after, I would highly consider the EF-S 10-22. I used that lens a bit when I would shoot on a crop. It's a fantastic lens, 10 is super wide.


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ericz34
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Jan 13, 2017 15:00 as a reply to  @ 3Rotor's post |  #3

I was looking at a couple of reviews and many said that the 80d had better depth of field than the t6i.. (maybe not nicer, but better? Lack of wording lol) figured it would be better for quality in landscape photography.




  
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crbinson
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Jan 13, 2017 15:06 as a reply to  @ ericz34's post |  #4

Dynamic Range maybe? I don't think your DOF information is accurate.

Consider a 10-18 STM lens if you want to go ultra-wide.

Image quality between the two bodies will be negligible.


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AlanU
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Jan 13, 2017 15:08 |  #5

The chances of you getting a perfectly focusing sigma 18-35 f/1.8 is slim IMO. Your Rebel does not have micro adjust so this can possibly be a headache. I guess you can tune the zoom heavily with the usb dock.

I'm not sure how you'd get a change in DOF going from one crop sensor body to another.

To my knowledge the 80D sensor is totally different to the t6i even though they are both 24 mp. 80D has dual pixel af so this is a different beast.

For greatest impact on perpective I'd go glass before body. Unfortunately you may need to go with a 10-18mm or 10-22 Canon crop lens for UWA....or the prime lenses you mentioned. This takes you further away in owning compatible full frame glass that you may want in the future full frame body.

Another drastic approach is changing your gear entirely which is $$$ costly. Buy FF and adaptable glass. For landscape I really enjoyed the 16-35 f/4IS on a full frame sensor.

If you indeed want to retain Crop sensor buying a new lens is a no brainer.


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waterrockets
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Jan 13, 2017 15:13 |  #6

ericz34 wrote in post #18243440 (external link)
I currently have a t6i
24m 2.8
50m 1.8
18-55 kit
18-135 kit

My style of photography has developed into landscape photography and although I'd like a FF body it's out of my budget with FF lens prices (about 2k budget if I really stretch it for lens and body). So I was considering an 80D because of its nicer DOF. Or just get some nicer glass which is usually the more obvious option, I just want a nicer body haha. I was thinking the sigma 18-35 1.8 and maybe the rokinon 16m 2.0 but I would only use this one for Astrophotography.
Thoughts, ideas, suggestions?
Thanks in advance!

What's your limitation with the kinds of photos you're taking? I'd apply the $2k directly to my current limiters. Is it image quality? Focal length issues? If you can't list specific issues where you're getting hung up by equipment related problems, I don't think you should upgrade anything. Great glass will work on the T6i or a nicer (FF?) body in the future.

Anyway:
$2k will buy you a 5D Mark ii or a 1DS Mark iii, and an L lens. You'll lose your 18-XXX lenses on that body, but no big loss. You could also get a used 24-105 and a wide angle Samyang with the 5D2. That would be a pretty rocking base setup for landscape, IMO.

That said, perhaps you're better off getting a really great tripod (used) that will last you decades, and great lens to keep for decades? Then upgrade the body when you're really at your wit's end with the Rebel for some reason.

I think you're in a tough spot with what you already sunk on the T6i, as the 80D isn't much of an improvement unless you're shooting sports. The Rebel resale would cause some wincing. I bought a T2i brand spanking new and shot sports with it until I was bumping my head on its performance ceiling, then I bought an "ancient" 1D3, and kept the T2i. The 1D3 kept me happy for another 4 years, and I just moved up to a 1D4. It's nice having a backup Rebel body, and your T6i could fall into that role. I don't recommend a minor upgrade like to an 80D, unless you had a much older Rebel and would see real improvement. All indications are that the T6i and 80D have the same sensor outside of AF.


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Luckless
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Jan 13, 2017 15:13 |  #7

Before anyone can really answer this question for you you really need to step back and ask yourself the difficult question:

Where is your current gear failing you?

What specifically about the photos that you're producing are you not happy with?

The truth is, lacking an actual hard stat of some kind - not long/short enough focal length, not fast/consistent enough auto focus, not enough detail, too soft, etc - then it is next to impossible to make an informed choice on what would actually help you. Buying gear without very clearly defining a problem and why the new gear solves it results in just having more gear on hand, but not a real purpose for it to exist.

Clearly answer that question, and you can far better decide what way to go.


On another note: Personally I tend to prefer adding more glass to a collection over a new model body. Good glass is still good glass on a body down the road. Upgrading a body too hastily costs you a premium in buying gear that will lose effective value faster.


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chauncey
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Jan 13, 2017 15:21 |  #8

Before you purchase any glass, learn to read MTF tables (higher and straighter are better).
Cameras...buying a used upper end body is sometimes economically viable...bodies come and go but glass is forever.


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ericz34
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Jan 13, 2017 15:25 |  #9

Dynamic range! Not DOF Ha! I apologize for that. (I'm an idiot lol)

I really appreciate the advice! There's a couple of things I never thought of. To boil it down, I think the main things that become a hindrance to my photography are that the images can be a little soft at times. There seems to be a lack of sharpness that isn't out of this world but would like to improve. So that's a matter of better glass. I also like shooting when it's darker, and the noise can usually be fixed in Lightroom (again nothing out of this world) but better lowlight capability would always be nice. Especially for shooting into the stars.

So maybe Decent apps-c lens that's fast?




  
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Luckless
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Jan 13, 2017 15:30 |  #10

Also something to possibly consider: an upgrade in your tripod and maybe a cable release.


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3Rotor
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Jan 13, 2017 15:34 as a reply to  @ ericz34's post |  #11

I think a good start would be to post of a couple of images that you're unhappy with regarding sharpness and noise. Renting is always a viable option just to try out a couple of lenses before buying. I had the Sigma 18-35 for a little while and my copy was de-centered. Shooting wide open all the way down to f/5.6, IIRC the right side was softer than the left. It got better by f/8 but was still sharper on the left than the right.

Sharpness is a never ending chase. You get to a point where you can't justify the extra money for the incremental increase. One thing to consider is how often do you print? If 95% of your images are viewed digitally, softness of a lens is almost negligible.


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Bassat
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Jan 13, 2017 16:08 |  #12
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ericz34 wrote in post #18243473 (external link)
Dynamic range! Not DOF Ha! I apologize for that. (I'm an idiot lol)

I really appreciate the advice! There's a couple of things I never thought of. To boil it down, I think the main things that become a hindrance to my photography are that the images can be a little soft at times. There seems to be a lack of sharpness that isn't out of this world but would like to improve. So that's a matter of better glass. I also like shooting when it's darker, and the noise can usually be fixed in Lightroom (again nothing out of this world) but better lowlight capability would always be nice. Especially for shooting into the stars.

So maybe Decent apps-c lens that's fast?

The only ef-s glass I own is the 18-55 STM, which I bought with my 80D solely to have a lens to sell with it, when the time comes. I spend a bit of time looking at ef-s glass reviews. The take-away? If you are after IQ, don't buy ef-s glass. Don't get me wrong, I think the 18-55 STM is a really good lens. So is the 18-135 STM. The 55-250 STM is a good, inexpensive, light ef-s lens that provides a good deal of reach. None of them compare to the quality of glass available if you spend more money.

Put a 70-200mm f/4L IS USM up against the 55-250 STM on crop camera. The L has almost no vignetting on crop, and is sharp across the frame at any aperture or focal length. The ef-s lens, while good in its own right, does not compare.

The best ef-s glass available is still ef-s glass. It is designed project and ef-s size image on the sensor. That means you get vignetting and soft(er) corners that full frame lenses used on crop cameras almost completely avoid. There is no ef-s USM glass. If focus speed matters, full frame lenses are required. The new 'nano-USM' lenses are almost as fast as USM, and almost as quiet as STM. That seems to me to be a compromise nobody asked for.

Allow me to repeat, the current generation of ef-s (STM) glass is really good. If it serves your needs, by all means, buy it, shoot it, love it. You'll be happy with the results. If you need the last 10% of performance, and you are willing to pay for it, ef-s lenses are not the answer.




  
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Jan 13, 2017 16:16 as a reply to  @ Bassat's post |  #13

I own a fair amount of EF and EF-s glass. I usually use 16-35F4 or rom 14 2.8 for landscape on a 6D. However, I have been happy with a 70D or 7D2 with either the sigma 17-50 or the canon 10-18 (which I felt was a good deal). Finally, the 18-135 STM is great in a pinch.

but if landscape is really your thing I think going full frame would be best…find a used 6D and buy the rok 14 2.8 manual lens and you could have much higher IQ for <1K. (along with using your 24 and 50 mm lenses)




  
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Jan 13, 2017 18:26 |  #14

You also mention a desire to go FF, if it were me with a $2k budget I'd go the used 6D & a used L 17-40/16-35 route then maybe sell the other body & EF-s lenses if I didn't want to keep the second body...

We see the 6D's second hand in the UK (from a retailer) around $1,000-1,200 USD equivalent.


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Jan 13, 2017 18:49 |  #15

One of the oft overlooked issues in the APS-C to 35mm format discussion, when considering 35mm format lenses to cover the same focal range as the 10-18, 18-55, and 55-250mm STMs is price. All three lenses give very good optical performance, generally quite a bit better then an almost equivalent focal length range in the consumer EF mount lenses. I had a quick look at my local dealer, the three EF-s STM lenses come in at a total of £687, including all our taxes. I beleive that the 24-105 STM is in the same IQ class as the 18-55 STM, and although a much longer FL range at only £379 it is much cheaper than the equivalent 24-70, which being an L pushes it up to £819. To get any Canon EF mount lens close to the width of the 10-18mm you will have to at the minimum go to the 17-40L, the closer matching 16-35mm being another £150 odd. Then you hit the real snag, with the telephoto, since none of the EF mount consumer lenses get anywhere near long enough to match that 250mm on the APS-C sensor. Canon simply don't have a consumer grade xxx-400mm zoom, and I'm not sure if the new MK II 70-300 IS USM will come anywhere close to the EF-s zoom optically, and even if it did it would still be 100mm or 25% too short. So ouch it's the 100-400 which in version 2 guise, since we are comparing new lenses after all is an eye watering £1789, or £1520 more than the 55-250. That makes a grand total of £2887 to match the coverage across the board of those three EF-s STM lenses. That is an additional £2200 to match the focal length range available in the smaller format. Although Canon have had a relativly basic introductory 35mm format DSLR body on sale now for around four years IIRC in the 6D, they simply don't have a corresponding range of optically good consumer EF glass. If Canon were to have a matching range of EF lenses to those for the EF-s mount, at a similar price differential as between the 80D, and the 6D, those consumer EF lenses should be around £1000 in total, or if you make the comparison from the 750D, then you are looking at a total of about £1800, or two thirds of the actual price difference.

Yes those EF lenses are of a much higher level of build quality etc, and yes from that point of view it's true those lenses are probably as good as it gets from Canon. Well the 100-400 certainly is, the 17-40 is still an L series lens, and the only "consumer" grade lens in the EF list is the 24-105 STM. A consumer grade 17-40 is badly needed, now that APS-C has a really good option in a similar FoV range, and the consumer telephoto zooms are simply dire, none of consumer 70-300 really make the grade compared to the 55-250, or you would see them recommended for use with the APS-c bodies too, since for a lot of uses that extra 50mm would be very very useful.

Alan


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80d or glass
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