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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 21 Apr 2013 (Sunday) 08:43
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135mm f/1.8 DG OS ART Next from Sigma?

 
LonelyBoy
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Feb 23, 2017 06:25 |  #91

I would love to see you lot go to the engineers who worked on, to use TS's example, the 100-400ii and tell them that all those improvements to sharpness and IS weren't "innovative". Innovation is anything new, and new optics or new IS absolutely count.


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05Xrunner
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Feb 23, 2017 07:04 |  #92

i am pretty sure they wouldnt consider what they did innovative either. they would call it improving not innovative. dont understand why you cant grasp the difference between the two


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LonelyBoy
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Feb 23, 2017 07:13 |  #93

05Xrunner wrote in post #18282519 (external link)
i am pretty sure they wouldnt consider what they did innovative either. they would call it improving not innovative. dont understand why you cant grasp the difference between the two

And again, I don't understand why you can't grasp that innovation is more than just FL/ aperture combos. New IS, new optical formula, those can absolutely be innovative. Show me a definition of "innovation" (from a dictionary, not your head) that doesn't include that.


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05Xrunner
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Feb 23, 2017 07:35 |  #94

in·no·va·tive
ˈinəˌvādiv/
adjective
(of a product, idea, etc.) featuring new methods; advanced and original.
"innovative designs"
(of a person) introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking.
"an innovative thinker"

Its creating something ORIGINAL and new ways. not taking the same product that has been around for 20+ years and just improving aspects of it. Creating something that no one thought was possible like 1.8 zooms is INNOVATIVE. Canon has the 11-24 as innovative because no one else was able to do 11mm fullframe. The STM for them was innovative because it let you use those lenses for Video and have zero AF noise while recording. But thats about all they got..nothing to get all excited about


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Post edited over 2 years ago by TeamSpeed. (5 edits in all)
     
Feb 23, 2017 09:50 |  #95

LonelyBoy wrote in post #18282487 (external link)
I would love to see you lot go to the engineers who worked on, to use TS's example, the 100-400ii and tell them that all those improvements to sharpness and IS weren't "innovative". Innovation is anything new, and new optics or new IS absolutely count.

Sorry, I am an engineer, from both a manufacturing and a software perspective. I change things very often, and I can tell when I am improving a process or a product, vs creating innovations in product and process.

Article to read:
http://asq.org …about-quality/innovation/ (external link)
http://www.innovationm​anagement.se …vement-is-not-innovation/ (external link)
https://www.ellevatene​twork.com …innovation-vs-improvement (external link)

If after this, you still don't grasp the differences, then I apologize. It is clear to us in engineering at least.


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Feb 24, 2017 05:31 |  #96

LonelyBoy wrote in post #18282487 (external link)
I would love to see you lot go to the engineers who worked on, to use TS's example, the 100-400ii and tell them that all those improvements to sharpness and IS weren't "innovative". Innovation is anything new, and new optics or new IS absolutely count.

That's iteration, not innovation.


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Feb 24, 2017 05:34 |  #97

70-200mm f/2.8 Mark IX - no innovation.

70-200mm f/2 - innovation.

It's pretty simple guys.


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L: 14/2.8 II | 17/4 | 24/1.4 II | 24/3.5 II | 35/1.4 II | 50/1.2 | 85/1.2 II | 100/2.8 Macro IS | 135/2 | 180/3.5 Macro | 200/2.8 II | 300/2.8 IS II | 400/2.8 IS II | 500/4 IS II | 600/4 IS II | 8-15/4 Fisheye | 11-24/4 | 16-35/2.8 III | 24-70/2.8 II | 70-200/2.8 IS II | 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS II | 200-400/4 IS 1.4x
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Feb 24, 2017 05:39 |  #98

Canon's innovation over the past few years:
11-24/4 - no-one has ever gone wider
200-400/4 - built-in extender
17/4 tilt-shift - first ultrawide tilt shift
Dual pixel AF in their new sensors

That's about it really.

They were miles ahead of Nikon back in the day - when they embraced USM, IS, low-noise, and fast apertures vis-a-vis - but they've lost it a bit.


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L: 14/2.8 II | 17/4 | 24/1.4 II | 24/3.5 II | 35/1.4 II | 50/1.2 | 85/1.2 II | 100/2.8 Macro IS | 135/2 | 180/3.5 Macro | 200/2.8 II | 300/2.8 IS II | 400/2.8 IS II | 500/4 IS II | 600/4 IS II | 8-15/4 Fisheye | 11-24/4 | 16-35/2.8 III | 24-70/2.8 II | 70-200/2.8 IS II | 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS II | 200-400/4 IS 1.4x
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Feb 24, 2017 05:41 |  #99

...and no-one EVER had a faster AF lens in their lineup, nobody.

Not least of which a 3rd-party upstart like Sigma. :-P


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L: 14/2.8 II | 17/4 | 24/1.4 II | 24/3.5 II | 35/1.4 II | 50/1.2 | 85/1.2 II | 100/2.8 Macro IS | 135/2 | 180/3.5 Macro | 200/2.8 II | 300/2.8 IS II | 400/2.8 IS II | 500/4 IS II | 600/4 IS II | 8-15/4 Fisheye | 11-24/4 | 16-35/2.8 III | 24-70/2.8 II | 70-200/2.8 IS II | 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS II | 200-400/4 IS 1.4x
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Feb 24, 2017 07:02 |  #100

Was any other brand using BR or DO in lenses before Canon?


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Post edited over 2 years ago by TeamSpeed. (11 edits in all)
     
Feb 24, 2017 07:04 |  #101

cwphoto wrote in post #18283540 (external link)
Canon's innovation over the past few years:
11-24/4 - no-one has ever gone wider
200-400/4 - built-in extender
17/4 tilt-shift - first ultrawide tilt shift
Dual pixel AF in their new sensors

That's about it really.

They were miles ahead of Nikon back in the day - when they embraced USM, IS, low-noise, and fast apertures vis-a-vis - but they've lost it a bit.


Any thoughts on these other items? Probably too far back on some of these. If you look just at Canon's offerings prior, these items were pretty off the beaten path for them. I suspect these took them out of their comfort zone anyways.

- New sensor design on 5D4, 80D and 1DX2 (although they are just playing catch-up here)
- Flicker control
- Touch/Tilt LCD
- Wifi/Mobile App
- iTR during live view/movie
- W-E1 wireless card for 7D2, and 5Ds series - $40 card vs their old huge WiFi modules at $200+
- New STM AF design
- Baby rebel SL1 - even after all these years, a huge hit, many large DSLR owners have an SL1
- AFMA (Canon was the first to offer this I believe)
- ALO

Pretty minor things other than the new sensor perhaps. As for any other lenses, I might throw the 55-250 STM into the mix, a very, very affordable kit lens that is actually optically quite good, silent and fast AF, something they never had before. You had the crappy 75-300 that IMO was one of the worst Canon lenses (even if you look at the USM version) and then next lens up was the 70-300, that okay, but was pricey for what it was.


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Feb 24, 2017 08:43 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #102

There was the two 55-250IS lenses before the STM version


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Feb 24, 2017 08:56 |  #103

mkkaczy wrote in post #18283590 (external link)
Was any other brand using BR or DO in lenses before Canon?

I'd say the 35/1.4 II was a recent innovation in using the blue goo even though is was used in a otherwise non innovative product. DO has been around for too long to considered a what have you done for me lately part of the argument.


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Feb 24, 2017 10:34 |  #104

Again, why does it matter what Sigma or anyone else does? I am having a hard time figuring out how it makes Canon gear less capable of doing photography things.

Just because a lens is 20 years old doesn't necessarily mean it takes worse photos. That's silly. Again, if you feel that your gear (and in this case, Canon by extension) is hindering your photography progression and/or accomplishments, then perhaps you need to reexamine what it is you're trying to do and adjust accordingly.

On the topic of innovation, there's no doubt that Sigma is on fire. They're beating the pants off of everyone in the lens department. That benefits all of us. Fact of the matter is that Canon doesn't necessarily need to innovate, as they're currently the market leader. Sigma can afford to innovate in order to capture market share. If too much market share is eventually lost to Sigma, Canon will be forced to develop a counter strategy to remain relevant. /shrug. Canon was in Sigma's shoes a few decades back, and if Sigma continues on their path, someone in the future will be out-innovating them. Basic free market principle... it's nothing to get wound up about. Enjoy the times we are living in, there's bountiful options for every man, woman and child.



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Feb 24, 2017 10:43 |  #105

MatthewK wrote in post #18283775 (external link)
Again, why does it matter what Sigma or anyone else does? I am having a hard time figuring out how it makes Canon gear less capable of doing photography things.

Just because a lens is 20 years old doesn't necessarily mean it takes worse photos. That's silly. Again, if you feel that your gear (and by extension, Canon in this case) is hindering your photography progression and/or accomplishments, then perhaps you need to reexamine what it is you're trying to do and adjust accordingly.

On the topic of innovation, there's no doubt that Sigma is on fire. They're beating the pants off of everyone in the lens department. That benefits all of us. Fact of the matter is that Canon doesn't necessarily need to innovate, as they're currently the market leader. Sigma can afford to innovate in order to capture market share. If too much market share is eventually lost to Sigma, Canon will be forced to develop a counter strategy to remain relevant. /shrug. Canon was in Sigma's shoes a few decades back, and if Sigma continues on their path, someone in the future will be out-innovating them. Basic free market principle... it's nothing to get wound up about. Enjoy the times we are living in, there's bountiful options for every man, woman and child.

Nobody aside from you has said anything about it hindering anyone's photography...

This was the initial post that you responded to that led down the innovation path

cwphoto wrote in post #18281256 (external link)
Because it will be sharper and has F/1.8. Why would you buy the Canon? It's 20+ years old!

Canon don't seem to innovate much any more. Thirty years ago they innovated with EF mount, and a slew of faster than ever AF lenses (50/1.0, 85/1.2, 200/1.8), then they did TS, and they owned the pro low-noise digi market with the EOS-1D Mark II.

Fast forward 30 years and a 3rd-party manufacturer is teaching them a thing or two about innovation.

MatthewK wrote in post #18281315 (external link)
Oh boy...

All of it is because there was disagreement on wether mk II's are as innovative as a lens that nobody has thought of before...

It's not that canon has to come up with innovating lenses now, but if this trend continues they'll be left behind pretty quickly...


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