Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 20 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 11:15
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?

 
this thread is locked
bobbyz
Cream of the Crop
19,087 posts
Likes: 1187
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Post edited over 1 year ago by bobbyz. (2 edits in all)
     
Apr 28, 2017 09:41 |  #601

I am doing more portraits and yes lot of folks there have Sony but camera wise I still prefer Fuji. Much better interface for me. Sony sensors are nice (Fuji uses them just like Nikon) and Sony's tech like eye detect, lot of memory, fast fps, this zero lag thing are all nice. Rumor is Fuji is also working on next gen mirrorless to compete with canon/nikon big guns. Fuji also needs 300/400mm f2.8 and the 500/600mm f4 if they want sports/wildlife folks to move to them. So far there is nothing on their road map as far as I know.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
mdripper
Member
104 posts
Likes: 43
Joined Jul 2013
     
Apr 28, 2017 09:43 |  #602

Id be worried if i was Canon. Cant speak for the A9 with personal experience but that fact that Sony has been able to "catch up" and really narrow the gap in such a short amount of time is pretty crazy. The A9 might not be perfect or completely on par with the 1DX II right now but how long will it take Sony to leap frog Canon?


Sony A9 || Sony 28 f/2 || Sony 85 f/1.8 ||
XPLOR 600 || R2 Speedlights ||

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,927 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 889
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Apr 28, 2017 10:08 |  #603

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18340891 (external link)
That is a good point for the "is Canon doomed" discussion.

I have never - not even once in my life - seen someone using a Sony mirrorless while afield. Yet I have seen hundreds of folks using Canon DSLRs and dozens of folks using Nikon DSLRs.

In fact, the only time I have even seen a Sony mirrorless camera is at my photography club meetings, where a member brings his with him to the meetings. Every other member has a DSLR.

.

Complacency is what will doom Canon (if they let it) ... not the A9.

I have made the argument before that what Sony has got on its side ... big time ... right now is its apparent commitment to continuing technical innovation and development. Anyone starting out in the ILC market today would, if they were sensible, make an assessment of where they would most likely want to be five or ten years down the line, given the way it seems that cameras and lenses are evolving. In their position, my assessment (unless Canikon get moving pretty soon and make their own statements in the marketplace) would be that Sony will be King of the Hill in higher end cameras ten years from now. If I'm going to seriously want to be a Sony shooter ten years from now, then that's the system to start building today. That will involve making a few compromises like using non-native longer lenses and generally fussing with far too many adapters and bits for a while ... but, on balance, it would seem a good decision. And, emotionally, I'd like to 'support' the side that seems more keen on and more committed to winning.

In the longer term: Sony or third-party manufacturers are going to fill the gaps in the native lens range (actually, perhaps quite quickly if firms like Sigma and Tamron see Sony bodies building market share); issues like the current bodies being too small to handle, especially with big lenses, are going to be addressed and better options offered. If you are looking forwards and are not too heavily invested, just now Sony look to be the system to buy into.

Canon can disrupt this very effectively ... if they choose to (for Nikon, it could be harder). To do so Canon needs to get out a quality FF mirrorless body based around a minor variation of the EF mount that will accept EF lenses. And they need to do it quite quickly and make sure the market knows that it is on the way even more quickly. The minor modification on the AF mount will be to allow FF mirrorless bodies to take advantage of the scope to recess wider angle lenses into the body when there isn't a mirror in the way. That way they will be able to deliver smaller body/lens combinations below 40mm FL or thereabouts and to offer a travel/street/landscap​e option that is similar in overall size to what Sony is able to deliver. As with EF-S the only modification to the 'EF-M' mount will be one to prevent EF-M lenses from being mounted destructively on DSLRs.

IMHO it doesn't matter if the early offering isn't quite up to Sony standards and it might be quite a good idea to start with something that is not being promoted as 'top of the range'. 6D market position could be ideal. What is important is that Canon makes a material statement of intent (i.e. produces a FF mirrorless ILC) and does not delay in doing so. Otherwise, it will miss the tide. If it fails, it probably will not be doomed but it will be seriously damaged.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
Post edited over 1 year ago by idkdc. (2 edits in all)
     
Apr 28, 2017 10:45 |  #604

DaviSto wrote in post #18340916 (external link)
Complacency is what will doom Canon (if they let it) ... not the A9.

I have made the argument before that what Sony has got on its side ... big time ... right now is its apparent commitment to continuing technical innovation and development. Anyone starting out in the ILC market today would, if they were sensible, make an assessment of where they would most likely want to be five or ten years down the line, given the way it seems that cameras and lenses are evolving. In their position, my assessment (unless Canikon get moving pretty soon and make their own statements in the marketplace) would be that Sony will be King of the Hill in higher end cameras ten years from now. If I'm going to seriously want to be a Sony shooter ten years from now, then that's the system to start building today. That will involve making a few compromises like using non-native longer lenses and generally fussing with far too many adapters and bits for a while ... but, on balance, it would seem a good decision. And, emotionally, I'd like to 'support' the side that seems more keen on and more committed to winning.

In the longer term: Sony or third-party manufacturers are going to fill the gaps in the native lens range (actually, perhaps quite quickly if firms like Sigma and Tamron see Sony bodies building market share); issues like the current bodies being too small to handle, especially with big lenses, are going to be addressed and better options offered. If you are looking forwards and are not too heavily invested, just now Sony look to be the system to buy into.

Canon can disrupt this very effectively ... if they choose to (for Nikon, it could be harder). To do so Canon needs to get out a quality FF mirrorless body based around a minor variation of the EF mount that will accept EF lenses. And they need to do it quite quickly and make sure the market knows that it is on the way even more quickly. The minor modification on the AF mount will be to allow FF mirrorless bodies to take advantage of the scope to recess wider angle lenses into the body when there isn't a mirror in the way. That way they will be able to deliver smaller body/lens combinations below 40mm FL or thereabouts and to offer a travel/street/landscap​e option that is similar in overall size to what Sony is able to deliver. As with EF-S the only modification to the 'EF-M' mount will be one to prevent EF-M lenses from being mounted destructively on DSLRs.

IMHO it doesn't matter if the early offering isn't quite up to Sony standards and it might be quite a good idea to start with something that is not being promoted as 'top of the range'. 6D market position could be ideal. What is important is that Canon makes a material statement of intent (i.e. produces a FF mirrorless ILC) and does not delay in doing so. Otherwise, it will miss the tide. If it fails, it probably will not be doomed but it will be seriously damaged.

Don't the Canon M cameras outsell Sony mirrorless in Japan? They're already testing the waters...doesn't that say that Canon can and will release a "serious" mirrorless in the near future?

You act as if Sony operates in a vacuum. Nikon had the D3 and D3s long before Canon had the 1DX. They will "catch up." Don't worry yourself too much.

Oh, and I like to support the "side" that helps me get my job done with less fuss.


1DXII(2) | 5D4 | D850 | 8-800mm

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,927 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 889
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Apr 28, 2017 10:50 |  #605

idkdc wrote in post #18340959 (external link)
Don't the Canon M cameras outsell Sony mirrorless in Japan? They're already testing the waters...doesn't that say that Canon can and will release a "serious" mirrorless in the near future?

You act as if Sony operates in a vacuum. Nikon had the D3 and D3s long before Canon had the 1DX. They will "catch up." Don't worry yourself too much.

What action am I supposed to have taken? And why do you imagine I am worried?

I actually think that Canon will enter the FF mirrorless market soon enough. I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing. But if they delay they will only allow Sony to build up much greater market momentum and that is going to hurt.

As an aside, I don't think Sony/Canon relative sales in Japan is the bellweather of either's likely global performance.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
elitejp
Goldmember
1,659 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 168
Joined Mar 2008
     
Apr 28, 2017 10:59 |  #606

Just reading on potn it at least appears that many have left canon and either went with sony or fuji and i expect many new buyers are doing the same, or at least heavily considering other brands. 10 years ago potn laughed at sony trying to play with the big boys and now both fuji and sony are taking market share away from canikon.


6D; canon 85mm 1.8, Tamron 24-70mm VC, Canon 135L Canon 70-200L is ii

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
15,163 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 5238
Joined Sep 2007
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:07 |  #607

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18340891 (external link)
That is a good point for the "is Canon doomed" discussion.

I have never - not even once in my life - seen someone using a Sony mirrorless while afield. Yet I have seen hundreds of folks using Canon DSLRs and dozens of folks using Nikon DSLRs.

In fact, the only time I have even seen a Sony mirrorless camera is at my photography club meetings, where a member brings his with him to the meetings. Every other member has a DSLR.

.

keep in mind, only a few years back, I hadnt seen a single one at the beach either, because they didnt exist :-P

I'de say I'm going out shooting on a biweekly basis, wish I got to shoot more, went whale watching, and it was the first time I saw the EOS-M5. Also a few A7's, nikon and canon.

Sony isnt really optimized for field sports and long distance wildlife yet. The 100-400 just came out, but you can expect to see more of the indoor sports, especially with the 70-200 f2.8, 85 f1.8, 100-400 all coming out within this year. It could be my area, but I see quite a bit of sony shooters at the beach along with canon mostly.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Chet
my rates fluctuate
Avatar
43,041 posts
Gallery: 128 photos
Likes: 1880
Joined Sep 2007
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:14 |  #608

Charlie wrote in post #18340985 (external link)
Sony isnt really optimized for field sports and long distance wildlife yet. The 100-400 just came out, but you can expect to see more of the indoor sports, especially with the 70-200 f2.8, 85 f1.8, 100-400 all coming out within this year. It could be my area, but I see quite a bit of sony shooters at the beach along with canon mostly.


Only saw cell phone camera's in myrtle Beach for spring break. Felt out of place with a 1d3 and long lens, almost creepy.


Curator of the Bob's Pickle Emporium experience. -As always, One location to serve you better!
~Feel good today and donate to this great forum~ LINK
My Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
15,163 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 5238
Joined Sep 2007
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:16 |  #609

DaviSto wrote in post #18340967 (external link)
What action am I supposed to have taken? And why do you imagine I am worried?

I actually think that Canon will enter the FF mirrorless market soon enough. I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing. But if they delay they will only allow Sony to build up much greater market momentum and that is going to hurt.

As an aside, I don't think Sony/Canon relative sales in Japan is the bellweather of either's likely global performance.

if they put as much effort in as their eos M, you can count me out. I think IBIS will set sony apart, if canon doesnt offer it, I couldnt be bothered.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
15,163 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 5238
Joined Sep 2007
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:21 |  #610

Chet wrote in post #18340990 (external link)
Only saw cell phone camera's in myrtle Beach for spring break. Felt out of place with a 1d3 and long lens, almost creepy.

yeah, some beaches dont have many photographers.

I live by manhattan beach California, it it's an extremely popular spot for photography, lot of times, you have battle for spots since portrait and landscape photogs try to get the tunnel view of the pier. At El porto like two miles north, you'll find guys shooting big whites catching the surfers. It's also a west facing beach, so you get to experience the sunset head on.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:22 |  #611

DaviSto wrote in post #18340967 (external link)
What action am I supposed to have taken? And why do you imagine I am worried?

I actually think that Canon will enter the FF mirrorless market soon enough. I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing. But if they delay they will only allow Sony to build up much greater market momentum and that is going to hurt.

As an aside, I don't think Sony/Canon relative sales in Japan is the bellweather of either's likely global performance.

You mentioned that you wanted to support the "winning side" - hence your fretting. It's not going to matter in the grand scheme of things. These will be two behemoths trading blows across the next two years (hopefully three if Nikon can come back to their senses). Good for all of us

Sony/Canon sales are a bellweather for Europe. US is its own market, in which big glass and large cameras still rule (think SUV's and suburbia).

Look at the sales and figures before jumping to any conclusions.


1DXII(2) | 5D4 | D850 | 8-800mm

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CheshireCat
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
2,303 posts
Likes: 405
Joined Oct 2008
Location: *** vanished ***
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:22 |  #612

Chet wrote in post #18340990 (external link)
Only saw cell phone camera's in myrtle Beach for spring break. Felt out of place with a 1d3 and long lens, almost creepy.

Surfers are omnipresent at the beach here, attracting many amateurs with nice gear.
I remember when my A7R2+ZE100/2 was dwarfed by an old lady handholding a 5D+300/2.8 :-D


1Dx, 5D2 and some lenses

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
idkdc
Goldmember
Avatar
2,838 posts
Likes: 251
Joined Oct 2014
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:23 |  #613

elitejp wrote in post #18340975 (external link)
Just reading on potn it at least appears that many have left canon and either went with sony or fuji and i expect many new buyers are doing the same, or at least heavily considering other brands. 10 years ago potn laughed at sony trying to play with the big boys and now both fuji and sony are taking market share away from canikon.

POTN is hardly representative of the rest of the industry - a lot of us (I generalize a bit here) are gearheads who care about diminishing returns. Plus, switchers are always more vocal than "stayers."


1DXII(2) | 5D4 | D850 | 8-800mm

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,927 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 889
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
Post edited over 1 year ago by DaviSto.
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:25 |  #614

Charlie wrote in post #18340993 (external link)
if they put as much effort in as their eos M, you can count me out. I think IBIS will set sony apart, if canon doesnt offer it, I couldnt be bothered.

I suspect IBIS will become irrelevant and a bit of anachronism in a few years time. Continuing improvements in sensor performance at higher ISOs will remove the point of having image stabilisation in anything up to 135mm. Just up the shutter speed and be done with camera shake. For longer lenses, it will still be useful to have stabilisation but it might just as well be built into the lenses, which are already big, heavy pieces of kit, where it can better be optimised to the lens characteristics.

For the time-being, I agree IBIS is (in my case, would be) very nice to have.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
7,606 posts
Likes: 414
Joined Apr 2003
Location: British Columbia
     
Apr 28, 2017 11:32 |  #615
bannedBack in 3 months

idkdc wrote in post #18341001 (external link)
POTN is hardly representative of the rest of the industry - a lot of us (I generalize a bit here) are gearheads who care about diminishing returns. Plus, switchers are always more vocal than "stayers."

Yes, but sales figures don't lie. 10 years ago the DSLR's ruled the ILC market...probably approaching 100% market share. Today, the mirrorless ILC market takes roughly 1/3 of the market...that 1/3 is coming off the bones of the DSLR sales.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

110,163 views & 836 likes for this thread
Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is cccx3
852 guests, 380 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.