Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 28 Apr 2017 (Friday) 18:34
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Copyright or Fair Use (within the news) - Australia

 
BJWOK
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 28, 2017 18:34 |  #1

If you've ever had a photo used without your permission, chanced are it was within the law: https://youtu.be/9iy2t​HDaJMo (external link)


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
monty28428
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
10,121 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 249
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Carolina Beach
     
Apr 28, 2017 18:59 |  #2

Think it's kind of funny as he complains about the law a bit ... but yet he's breaking the law trespassing.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BJWOK
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 28, 2017 20:07 |  #3

Yeah, I noted this as I was entering. But truth be known, this place has been abandoned for 7 years now and is a known place to shoot, squat or tag (or do whatever you want). But yeah, you are right, it's still trespassing.


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,239 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1539
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Apr 28, 2017 22:24 |  #4

Rule #1 of business is never accept legal advise from the other party in a dispute. Their responsibility is to themselves not to you and you should never rely on anything they tell you.

In this case what they told you was wrong. Yes, Fair Use/Fair Dealing laws do exist (and not just in Australia) and they do include an exception for Editorial use BUT that use is severely limited. There are various tests that must be applied to the usage for it to be fair use and one of those is that it is non-commercial.

Courts have repeatedly ruled that news media's primary purpose is to make money. They are using your copyright work to make money and as such Fair Use doesn't apply.


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BJWOK
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 29, 2017 09:36 as a reply to  @ Dan Marchant's post |  #5

Cheers man, I answered this on your same post on YouTube (here it is for those wondering: https://youtu.be/9iy2t​HDaJMo (external link)


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
7,981 posts
Gallery: 542 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1606
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
     
Apr 29, 2017 09:51 |  #6

Dan Marchant wrote in post #18341483 (external link)
Rule #1 of business is never accept legal advise from the other party in a dispute. Their responsibility is to themselves not to you and you should never rely on anything they tell you.

In this case what they told you was wrong. Yes, Fair Use/Fair Dealing laws do exist (and not just in Australia) and they do include an exception for Editorial use BUT that use is severely limited. There are various tests that must be applied to the usage for it to be fair use and one of those is that it is non-commercial.

Courts have repeatedly ruled that news media's primary purpose is to make money. They are using your copyright work to make money and as such Fair Use doesn't apply.


I think that the only times that the "media" could (should?) really get away with a fair use exception is when the image involved is incidentally included in the background, such as during an on location interview, or if the image it self is the news item.

I believe that there is some case law on this, possibly in the USA, that found that showing an image that was subject to an infringement case as part of a story on the case was a fair use of the image. Even though in the end the original infringement, which was by the same news program in a report related to the image content was later agreed to indeed be an infringement.

Looking at the links provided to Australian law it does seem as if you can just use anybodies work if you are reporting "news", at least as far as video and photos are concerned. That would seem to make things rather difficult for any picture library to operate in Australia, since all you would need do is just attribute the work and use it anyway. I wonder what would happen if the OP were to start regularly using this companies copyrighted images in blog posts, which are a communication, and so covered by the exemption. I would bet that they would be on you with the lawyers in a heartbeat.


Oh and for the Americans and some others among us trespass is not a criminal act in many countries around the world. Here in the UK for example as long as you do not cause damage, and are not armed, then trespass is a civil matter not criminal. Armed trespass is a criminal offence since it allows the landowner to have a "poacher" arrested before they have illegally taken any game, Since it was generally the landed classes that controlled legislation in the 1800's when many of the current UK laws were formulated.

Here you can rock up with several vehicles and a caravan and set up camp on any bit of land, as long as you don't cut a lock. It generally takes about ten days to get them removed from the site, and that is if you can get the process fast tracked trough the courts. This is very common here in the UK, and what is worse most sites end up completely contaminated with all sorts of waste, which can cost the landowner many tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds to have cleared up. We had two big cases in my local area, one on a council car park, the other on a local high school playing field. In both cases the total court and enforcement costs, along with the clean up operation cost the local taxpayers over £250000! That's over half a million pounds out of the local taxpayers pockets.

For the urban explorer thing even if there is criminal damage done to gain entry, they would have to prove who actually caused the damage. Since simply claiming you found it like that would usually be a sufficient defence.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BJWOK
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 29, 2017 18:43 |  #7

Thanks Al,

Very interesting case you outlined! It's definitely a tricky one and something that I don't agree on (as a content creator and photographer), but it is what it is I guess :(

Thanks for explaining the trespass thing too! All our laws stem from England (as we are a commonwealth too) so I'd say the basis of why trespass is not such a huge deal in Oz stems from that explanation. And yeah, as long as you are not physically removing a lock or smashing anything to enter you are good to go and the only thing that will happen if security is called is you will be asked to move on.

Cheer again Alan :)


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pigpen101
Senior Member
890 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 553
Joined Mar 2017
     
Apr 29, 2017 19:16 as a reply to  @ BJWOK's post |  #8

I am from the states so not aware of the nuances of Australia law, however, when they mentioned a counter offer of $200 I would have told them we should just let our lawyers determine the value of my images. The law would most likely cost them more than the original $1,300 you were asking for.

Also, as a side note, I saw that the mention of "Getty Images" was somewhere in there. I find it funny that the people that shoot for such organizations, (Associated Press included), look down their noses at photographers such as us as not legitimate news outlets and hurting the photography industry (mainly because the digital age has allowed many terrible photographers to become "pros"). However, the entire time their "stock" images are taking away business from legitimate, qualified photographers. Many think we are just in their way and should just use their images available on the news wire. I have a problem with every newspaper publication within a 150 mile radius having the exact same images. In all actuality, the fact that they think all should just use a few outlets as their source is the true threat to the photography business.

Sorry to get a bit off track, but you struck a nerve. :-)




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pippan
Goldmember
Avatar
1,558 posts
Gallery: 110 photos
Likes: 2169
Joined Oct 2015
Location: Darwin, Straya
     
Apr 29, 2017 19:34 |  #9

BigAl007 wrote in post #18341749 (external link)
Oh and for the Americans and some others among us trespass is not a criminal act in many countries around the world. Here in the UK for example as long as you do not cause damage, and are not armed, then trespass is a civil matter not criminal. Armed trespass is a criminal offence since it allows the landowner to have a "poacher" arrested before they have illegally taken any game, Since it was generally the landed classes that controlled legislation in the 1800's when many of the current UK laws were formulated.

Here you can rock up with several vehicles and a caravan and set up camp on any bit of land, as long as you don't cut a lock. It generally takes about ten days to get them removed from the site, and that is if you can get the process fast tracked trough the courts. This is very common here in the UK, and what is worse most sites end up completely contaminated with all sorts of waste, which can cost the landowner many tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds to have cleared up. We had two big cases in my local area, one on a council car park, the other on a local high school playing field. In both cases the total court and enforcement costs, along with the clean up operation cost the local taxpayers over £250000! That's over half a million pounds out of the local taxpayers pockets.

For the urban explorer thing even if there is criminal damage done to gain entry, they would have to prove who actually caused the damage. Since simply claiming you found it like that would usually be a sufficient defence.

Alan

In New South Wales, where Benon lives, under the law of trespass, if someone enters your property without permission you can ask them to leave. If they refuse to go when asked, they are trespassing and you can use reasonable force to remove them. Under the Inclosed Lands Protection Act 1901 (sections 4, 4A), where the land is fenced or enclosed, there are various penalties for unlawful entry and offensive conduct. With or without a fence, you may also be able to sue the trespasser if damage or injury has been caused.


— Please feel free to offer your thoughts on how I might improve my images —

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BJWOK
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 29, 2017 20:38 as a reply to  @ Pigpen101's post |  #10

All good Pigpen :) If this sparks off another conversation and it's a worthy topic I'm all for the discussion!


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BJWOK
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,203 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 693
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
     
Apr 29, 2017 20:39 |  #11

Pippan wrote in post #18342193 (external link)
In New South Wales, where Benon lives, under the law of trespass, if someone enters your property without permission you can ask them to leave. If they refuse to go when asked, they are trespassing and you can use reasonable force to remove them. Under the Inclosed Lands Protection Act 1901 (sections 4, 4A), where the land is fenced or enclosed, there are various penalties for unlawful entry and offensive conduct. With or without a fence, you may also be able to sue the trespasser if damage or injury has been caused.


Thanks Pippan :) Appreciate you chiming in here. I guess the key point to the Inclosed Lands Protection Act is the fence in question was not enclosed (if it ever came down to that is all I'm saying).


My name is Benon (BJWOK are my initials) :)
www.bjwok.com (external link) <<-- NEW LIGHTROOM CC & LIGHTROOM CC CLASSIC PRESETS FOR MUSIC PHOTOGRAPHERS
Benon Koebsch - Photographer (external link) (Facebook)
Gives A Minute (external link) (YouTube channel)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Do people actually believe in the Title Fairy?
Avatar
5,239 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 1539
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
     
Apr 30, 2017 08:13 |  #12

Pippan wrote in post #18342193 (external link)
In New South Wales, where Benon lives, under the law of trespass, if someone enters your property without permission you can ask them to leave. If they refuse to go when asked, they are trespassing and you can use reasonable force to remove them. Under the Inclosed Lands Protection Act 1901 (sections 4, 4A), where the land is fenced or enclosed, there are various penalties for unlawful entry and offensive conduct. With or without a fence, you may also be able to sue the trespasser if damage or injury has been caused.

This is very similar to the UK and US. In relation to photography what is interesting is that there is no law against taking a photo on private land, even if trespassing and any photos taken belong to you, not the land owner.

They have the right to ask you to stop taking photos and to leave their land but any photos taken belong to the photographer and can't be confiscated or destroyed.


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Deardorff
Member
110 posts
Likes: 29
Joined Oct 2016
     
May 13, 2017 06:52 |  #13

Dan Marchant wrote in post #18342535 (external link)
This is very similar to the UK and US. In relation to photography what is interesting is that there is no law against taking a photo on private land, even if trespassing and any photos taken belong to you, not the land owner.

They have the right to ask you to stop taking photos and to leave their land but any photos taken belong to the photographer and can't be confiscated or destroyed.

Some States do have laws against photographing on Private Property. "Ag Gag" laws - Agricultural Gag laws make it illegal to photograph farming operations and even have jail penalties attached.
You need to know the law in your State and locale as it varies. For this and others, remember that advice here is worth what you pay for it...


"I've been a procrastinator all my life. I keep meaning to do something about that."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

2,178 views & 1 like for this thread
Copyright or Fair Use (within the news) - Australia
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is letiphotography
1022 guests, 299 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.