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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 20 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 11:15
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Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?

 
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CheshireCat
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Post edited over 1 year ago by CheshireCat. (3 edits in all)
     
May 16, 2017 00:17 |  #991

idkdc wrote in post #18355823 (external link)
Not sure what to think of your glib "nonsense" or if you actually shoot any video for commercial, documentary or narrative purposes. If you shoot on the C300 Mark II or FS7, then 4K DCI is the way to go for your second camera to match resolution and aspect ratio.

Well, I think that anything that's going to be displayed mainly on a consumer display must be UHD. That's obviously including commercials.
I also believe that it makes sense for cinema to use the same aspect ratio of consumer displays, and that this will eventually happen.

Also, you didn't address 4K 60p nor a lack of picture styles. $4500 for a camera to record cinematic video without either is money down the drain.

I am disappointed by the lack of UHD@60p and by the lack of SLog (which could be added with a simple firmware update). But that's not what the A9 is meant for.


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Charlie
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May 16, 2017 00:28 |  #992

Wilt wrote in post #18355607 (external link)
You might want to be patient...
Those who have handled the A9 in sponsored Sony events for key members of photographic community (and press) have commented, though, that the A9 seems to be a lightweight for video, and they would expect to find a better video-oriented version (a.k.a. A9s) to be launched.

how patient do you have to be? The 5Div just came out, has some sort of C-log, but only shoots cropped mode, and doesnt have IBIS. The 1dx mark ii costs quite a bit more, doesnt shoot 4K in full frame, doesnt have ibis, weighs a boat load, but does 60p. Sony does 4K full frame, has IBIS, does 4K in crop mode...... easy choice.

it does AF with canon lenses during video, but wont be as fast as canon AF on canon. It can also AF sony lenses where canon cant use sony lenses :-P

if you're going to tell Talley to wait it out, his kids may be teenagers by then :-)


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (7 edits in all)
     
May 16, 2017 00:33 |  #993

Charlie wrote in post #18355832 (external link)
how patient do you have to be? The 5Div just came out, has some sort of C-log, but only shoots cropped mode, and doesnt have IBIS. The 1dx mark ii costs quite a bit more, doesnt shoot 4K in full frame, doesnt have ibis, weighs a boat load, but does 60p. Sony does 4K full frame, has IBIS, does 4K in crop mode...... easy choice.

it does AF with canon lenses during video, but wont be as fast as canon AF on canon. It can also AF sony lenses where canon cant use sony lenses :-P

if you're going to tell Talley to wait it out, his kids may be teenagers by then :-)

Why do you feel I have to defend that postion when it was NOT MY OPINION? I had said it was the opinion of some pro photographers who happened to also have some professional video requirements, who felt that way after handling the camera at a Sony event! I have near-zero need for video myself.

You already quoted my earlier statement, which makes that exact point (i.e., NOT MY STATEMENT):

"Those who have handled the A9 in sponsored Sony events for key members of photographic community (and press) have commented, though, that the A9 seems to be a lightweight for video, and they would expect to find a better video-oriented version (a.k.a. A9s) to be launched."

I need not try to defend a statement made by others, which I simply 'reported' for reference, just as I need not defend statements made by Clinton or Bush or Obama or Trump, which I might also report upon.


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idkdc
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May 16, 2017 00:35 |  #994

CheshireCat wrote in post #18355828 (external link)
Well, I think that anything that's going to be displayed mainly on a consumer display must be UHD. That's obviously including commercials.
I also believe that it makes sense for cinema to use the same aspect ratio of consumer displays, and that this will eventually happen.

I am disappointed by the lack of UHD@60p and by the lack of SLog (which could be added with a simple firmware update). But that's not what the A9 is meant for.

You are correct, commercials are prob better in UHD. You can always crop DCI into UHD though, and not the other way around.

A cinema standard is a cinema standard. You don't see the movie industry lowering their gamut range just because people had TN panels for the longest times. Why don't we skip calibrating for cinema standards since no one has a calibrated screen then? At least going by your logic.

Yes, and that's what discounts it for video, which was the topic at hand. If it's not added by now, there probably will not be a firmware update for S-Log. The omission was intentional by design.


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idkdc
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May 16, 2017 00:55 |  #995

Charlie wrote in post #18355832 (external link)
how patient do you have to be? The 5Div just came out, has some sort of C-log, but only shoots cropped mode, and doesnt have IBIS. The 1dx mark ii costs quite a bit more, doesnt shoot 4K in full frame, doesnt have ibis, weighs a boat load, but does 60p. Sony does 4K full frame, has IBIS, does 4K in crop mode...... easy choice.

it does AF with canon lenses during video, but wont be as fast as canon AF on canon. It can also AF sony lenses where canon cant use sony lenses :-P

if you're going to tell Talley to wait it out, his kids may be teenagers by then :-)

Everything has its cons: the A7sII has no phase detect autofocus; the A7rII has less low-light capability, the A9 has no S-Log; the A6500 is a crop sensor; none of them have 4K 60P. The 1DXII has no hardware-level C-log. Talley's best bet is to wait for an A7SIII when it comes out, or the C200 as another camera if he doesn't want to have three different systems or have to sell stuff at a loss.

Lol, the guy's gear is all Sigma and Canon. Doesn't make a difference if the Canon can't AF in video with Sony lenses.


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Charlie
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May 16, 2017 01:25 |  #996

idkdc wrote in post #18355846 (external link)
Everything has its cons: the A7sII has no phase detect autofocus; the A7rII has less low-light capability, the A9 has no S-Log; the A6500 is a crop sensor; none of them have 4K 60P. The 1DXII has no hardware-level C-log. Talley's best bet is to wait for an A7SIII when it comes out, or the C200 as another camera if he doesn't want to have three different systems or have to sell stuff at a loss.

Lol, the guy's gear is all Sigma and Canon. Doesn't make a difference if the Canon can't AF in video with Sony lenses.

What if the a7siii is CDAF again? The a7sii came after the A7rii and we really don't know if update cycle will change our not. Been two years already, Sony may have opted for longer cycles at this point. For AF options it comes down to the A7rii and A9. Quality will probably be a wash in video if I had to guess. Supposedly super 35 is the best for low light, but having shot both FF 4K and super 35 in low light, I wasn't able to tell them apart. The A9 video will perform better in low light than the A7rii, so it's the most well rounded.

As for AF with Canon in video, I was corrected by Philip Bloom, you can indeed AF with Canon lenses in video, sigma as well(mb4 using native mode). USM lenses were clearly not meant to do this though, the adjustments are made super fast and you can totally hear the USM motor. Will definitely need external microphone, or shoot native Sony lenses, which Talley wouldn't be able to resist.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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May 16, 2017 01:31 |  #997

Charlie wrote in post #18355852 (external link)
What if the a7siii is CDAF again? The a7sii came after the A7rii and we really don't know if update cycle will change our not. Been two years already, Sony may have opted for longer cycles at this point. For AF options it comes down to the A7rii and A9. Quality will probably be a wash in video if I had to guess. Supposedly super 35 is the best for low light, but having shot both FF 4K and super 35 in low light, I wasn't able to tell them apart. The A9 video will perform better in low light than the A7rii, so it's the most well rounded.

As for AF with Canon in video, I was corrected by Philip Bloom, you can indeed AF with Canon lenses in video, sigma as well(mb4 using native mode). USM lenses were clearly not meant to do this though, the adjustments are made super fast and you can totally hear the USM motor. Will definitely need external microphone, or shoot native Sony lenses, which Talley wouldn't be able to resist.

So if he had to choose now, A7rII for S-Log and PDAF, or A9 for no S-Log, each with total replacement of lenses and still an on-camera microphone added and still a gimbal added unless he's keeping stationary (30p), or 1DX II with external microphone and larger gimbal with no hardware, but some workaround picture styles available, C-Log while keeping current lenses (60p).

Also, might want to factor in an Atomos Flame Shogun and its weight + Sony NP-F batteries for the A7rII while he's at it to help with overheating and codec limitations.


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May 16, 2017 01:49 |  #998

This thread is beyond ridiculous.
Good luck to anyone waiting for any company to release this imaginary camera anytime soon.


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Charlie
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May 16, 2017 08:11 |  #999

idkdc wrote in post #18355854 (external link)
So if he had to choose now, A7rII for S-Log and PDAF, or A9 for no S-Log, each with total replacement of lenses and still an on-camera microphone added and still a gimbal added unless he's keeping stationary (30p), or 1DX II with external microphone and larger gimbal with no hardware, but some workaround picture styles available, C-Log while keeping current lenses (60p).

Also, might want to factor in an Atomos Flame Shogun and its weight + Sony NP-F batteries for the A7rII while he's at it to help with overheating and codec limitations.

Not the A7rii, Talley isn't interested in the feature set for photography.

Not for the 1dxii, he's not interested in the crop factor.

The A9 would be the Jack Talley was looking for.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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May 16, 2017 09:56 |  #1000

Charlie wrote in post #18355979 (external link)
Not the A7rii, Talley isn't interested in the feature set for photography.

Not for the 1dxii, he's not interested in the crop factor.

The A9 would be the Jack Talley was looking for.

It's close if he can live without picture styles in video, reduced autofocus speed or accuracy, or with replacing all of his lenses with Sony counterparts that are 150-200% the price of his lenses, at at least a 30% additional loss to liquidate his glass.

The 5DIV is already the jack of all trades for everything except video crop. Slap on a Tokina 14-20 f2, and he can afford to wait.


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Charlie
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May 16, 2017 11:30 |  #1001

Eye focus wasnt bad before, but looks incredible now


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May 16, 2017 12:47 |  #1002

Charlie wrote in post #18356129 (external link)
Eye focus wasnt bad before, but looks incredible now

Oh, this whole time I have been thinking that "eye focus" meant that it focuses on whatever you look at with your eye when you are looking through the viewfinder....or at the "viewfinder".

This appears to be a different type of "eye focus", in which it focuses on an eye if there is an eye in the frame.

............... ............... ...............

Some questions for any of you who may be able to answer:

Does this work for any object, or just for eyes?

Will this work with any eyes that you program into it, or does it just track human eyes?

Can you tell it which eye to focus on, or does it just pick an eye on its own and override your wishes?

............... ............... ...............

If this only works with human eyes, then it is a completely and utterly useless feature for me.

However, if it works with any eye or any object that I want it to, and tracks that object as well as it tracks the eye in the video that Charlie posted, then it would be, like, the most useful camera feature ever!

.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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May 16, 2017 16:01 |  #1003

Charlie wrote in post #18355979 (external link)
Not the A7rii, Talley isn't interested in the feature set for photography.

Not for the 1dxii, he's not interested in the crop factor.

The A9 would be the Jack Talley was looking for.

idkdc wrote in post #18356074 (external link)
It's close if he can live without picture styles in video, reduced autofocus speed or accuracy, or with replacing all of his lenses with Sony counterparts that are 150-200% the price of his lenses, at at least a 30% additional loss to liquidate his glass.

The 5DIV is already the jack of all trades for everything except video crop. Slap on a Tokina 14-20 f2, and he can afford to wait.


Both of you are kinda right. 5D4 is my jack of all trades... actually I think the X-T2 is more. Because it fits the "travel" category which isn't as fitting for the larger camera. But then I haven't found a camera yet that can compare to the DPAF focusing during video that I find excellent.

XT-2 viewfinder probably not the best at low light but everything else with that camera screams user friendly dials and excellent ergonomics in such a small package. IQ is on par with a 5D3 and so far the XT20 vs 5D4 I'm very impressed with that little camera. This camera would fit best with a 3 axis gimbal and most likely this is the direction I'll be moving to.

For now... I'll buy a X-T2 and play w/ both systems. Meanwhile I'll still enjoy my 5D4. Nothing matches it in video...

...what I mean is nothing for my needs matches it. I don't care about DCI or UHD or Slog or Clog or whatever. I just want to video my family with high quality lenses, nice sharpness and excellent dynamic range and I want it in an all in one package.

I'm waiting on the rumored 8-16mm 2.8 wide angle and the 200/2 lens for the fuji system and then I'll have no reason to stay with Canon. They have everything else I desire. and by then Godox will have it's fuji trigger and my entire flash system will work fine.

I'm slowly buying Fuji used glass and waiting for the right deals. My wife is sold 100%... I just need a second body so I can use her lenses... I'll get the remaining stuff I'm lacking... I want the 90 and 16 and will get the 8mm FE from rokinon. Everything I own I can get in Fuji except for the 200/2. This lens keeps me to Canon for now.


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Charlie
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May 16, 2017 16:52 |  #1004

Talley wrote in post #18356289 (external link)
Both of you are kinda right. 5D4 is my jack of all trades... actually I think the X-T2 is more. Because it fits the "travel" category which isn't as fitting for the larger camera. But then I haven't found a camera yet that can compare to the DPAF focusing during video that I find excellent.

XT-2 viewfinder probably not the best at low light but everything else with that camera screams user friendly dials and excellent ergonomics in such a small package. IQ is on par with a 5D3 and so far the XT20 vs 5D4 I'm very impressed with that little camera. This camera would fit best with a 3 axis gimbal and most likely this is the direction I'll be moving to.

For now... I'll buy a X-T2 and play w/ both systems. Meanwhile I'll still enjoy my 5D4. Nothing matches it in video...

...what I mean is nothing for my needs matches it. I don't care about DCI or UHD or Slog or Clog or whatever. I just want to video my family with high quality lenses, nice sharpness and excellent dynamic range and I want it in an all in one package.

I'm waiting on the rumored 8-16mm 2.8 wide angle and the 200/2 lens for the fuji system and then I'll have no reason to stay with Canon. They have everything else I desire. and by then Godox will have it's fuji trigger and my entire flash system will work fine.

I'm slowly buying Fuji used glass and waiting for the right deals. My wife is sold 100%... I just need a second body so I can use her lenses... I'll get the remaining stuff I'm lacking... I want the 90 and 16 and will get the 8mm FE from rokinon. Everything I own I can get in Fuji except for the 200/2. This lens keeps me to Canon for now.

man, I still remember the time you were shooting what, the 7D? You were convinced you had it all going for you :-P

until canon makes ALL stm lenses, you will continue to have the USM motor noise issue.

all of sony lenses are STM to start with, so they work wonderful with video.

every single one of them is stabilized via IBIS, so a lot less need for a gimbal, but dont be dissuaded to use one, they're great to have. I came from the days of shooting weighted gimbals, the balance types, and they were great, but overkill for dad duties, ibis gets me there, and when I'm planted on a single spot, then I have a mono/tripod.

btw, fuji equivalent to 200/2 will be a fuji 135ish F2... you can adapt the sigma 135 and call it a day.


Sony A7rii/A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - CV 21/3.5 - FE 35/2.8 - SY 35/1.4 AF - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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May 16, 2017 17:09 |  #1005

Charlie wrote in post #18356316 (external link)
man, I still remember the time you were shooting what, the 7D? You were convinced you had it all going for you :-P

until canon makes ALL stm lenses, you will continue to have the USM motor noise issue.

all of sony lenses are STM to start with, so they work wonderful with video.

every single one of them is stabilized via IBIS, so a lot less need for a gimbal, but dont be dissuaded to use one, they're great to have. I came from the days of shooting weighted gimbals, the balance types, and they were great, but overkill for dad duties, ibis gets me there, and when I'm planted on a single spot, then I have a mono/tripod.

btw, fuji equivalent to 200/2 will be a fuji 135ish F2... you can adapt the sigma 135 and call it a day.

True and yeah I started w/ what I could afford and built up. My salary in 5 years has done me very well to be where I'm at now. I continue to learn/struggle/desire to be better at my photography. 7D is a great camera.

I really feel the A9 will be good... I'm just still trying to decide on the glass situation. One easy thing for me is adapting my sigma glass. No loss in selling that off. I could benenfit from getting the native smaller glass like the 35/2.8 for travel and have a smaller system.

Lots of options for sure. I'm no way disappointed in my system but I refuse to be a two camera system person. I just want one system and I want great video quality for parties, birthdays, recitals, concerts, etc and I want the same camera to be excellent for photos. I want F1.4 glass for DOF/ISO benefits. The fuji system is perfect... but it's crop. Sony A9 is now a contender but it's not "alot" of weight savings either. Canon 5D4 is top dog awesome... but the glass I desire leaves me not wanting to travel with the setup.

Last paragraph kinda summarizes how I feel. One camera... Great video... Great images... DOF blur goodness (85 1.4 is my fav)... light... price no object.... can do sports also...

and for the record... I'm just brain storming. I have no interest in selling any of my gear at the moment... other than the 24-105 but only to swap it out for possibly a gimbal.


A7rIII | A7III | 12-24 F4 | 28-75 2.8 | 100-400 GM | 12mm 2.8 Fisheye | 35mm 2.8 | 50mm 1.8 | 85mm 1.8 | 35A | 85A | 200mm L F2 IS | MC-11
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