Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 16 May 2017 (Tuesday) 05:26
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Photography Teacher's Challenge

 
harcosparky
Goldmember
2,412 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 46
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Harford County - ( Bel Air ) Maryland
     
May 16, 2017 05:26 |  #1

Challenge to his students .......

Take your camera out, shoot 36 consecutive useable " straight out of camera " images.

36 files must be consecutively numbered by the camera.

In other words ....... " pretend you put a 36 exposure roll of film in your camera and every shot must count. "

His purpose was obvious ...... THINK BEFORE YOU SHOOT !!!!!




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
Nathan
So boring
Avatar
7,712 posts
Gallery: 16 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 289
Joined Aug 2007
Location: Boston
     
May 16, 2017 10:44 |  #2

I might use Lightroom to batch rename the files.  :p


Taking photos with a fancy camera does not make me a photographer.
www.nathantpham.com (external link) | Boston POTN Flickr (external link) |
5D3 x2 | 16-35L II | 35 L | 50L | 85L II | 135L | 580 EX II x2

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Luckless
Goldmember
3,061 posts
Likes: 184
Joined Mar 2012
Location: PEI, Canada
     
May 16, 2017 11:07 |  #3

Honestly I think a far better lesson of "Think before you shoot" is to be had by saying "Go out and take 10,000 images. Now sit down and pick one or two of them to present, and delete the rest."


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
Flickr: Real-Luckless (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joedlh
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,246 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Likes: 387
Joined Dec 2007
Location: Long Island, NY, N. America, Sol III, Orion Spur, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Cluster, Laniakea.
     
May 16, 2017 11:53 |  #4

Far be it from me to criticize the pedagogy of a teacher...

Never mind. I'm going to do it anyway.

Going back to my learning years, every picture that I took was a learning experience. While I was learning, the ratio of "usable" images to flubs was quite low. And yes, this was with film. We get better by making mistakes and trying to figure out how to stop making them.

I think perhaps the teacher could have phrased the assignment in a different way if the goal was to get students to avoid spraying and praying. Perhaps enforce a minimum interval between the 36 images as recorded in the exif data.

No beginning photography student is going to get 100% usable images from 36 consecutive shots no matter how much they plan ahead. That's the point of taking a photography course.

The question also betrays a prejudice often held by film enthusiasts about digital photography. They perceive digital as an encumbrance to the learning process because it encourages people to spray and pray. In my view, there are no better learning tools than the histogram on the back of a digital camera and the exif file. I wish I had these when I was learning.


Joe
Gear: Kodak Instamatic, Polaroid Swinger. Oh you meant gear now. :rolleyes:
http://photo.joedlh.ne​t (external link)
Editing ok

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,154 posts
Gallery: 140 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 2923
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
May 16, 2017 13:39 |  #5

joedlh wrote in post #18356141 (external link)
The question also betrays a prejudice often held by film enthusiasts about digital photography. They perceive digital as an encumbrance to the learning process because it encourages people to spray and pray. In my view, there are no better learning tools than the histogram on the back of a digital camera and the exif file. I wish I had these when I was learning.

I agree with your opinion about this assignment.

I dislike the term, "spray and pray" because it misrepresents the act of shooting a lot of photos in hopes of getting a few good ones. When one shoots a lot, or shoots a lot of frames per second, he is not doing so with this mindset that he "just hopes" one of them will turn out. He does so with a lot of knowledge and experience behind him, knowing that there are a lot of variables with his subjects that cannot be foreseen - times when perfect timing is not possible because, well, lets face it, no one can predict when someone is going to blink their eyes, or when a fly is going to land on someone's cheek. No, there has never been any human that has ever been able to time these things.

I can learn a heck of a lot when I take several test images and check them on the histogram, then make adjustments to my settings in order to fine-tune the results that I get. This is real learning right there in the midst of the action, and I think that this kind of think-fast-on-your-feet stuff is what the teacher should be teaching.

I taught an after-school photography program to a bunch of high schoolers a few years ago, and I never tried to teach them via limiting their options. I allowed them the freedom to use whatever was available to them, and I think that people learn better that way. Arbitrary, self-imposed limitations are not good learning aids. Pretending that you don't have something is not a good way to teach people to use the other things that they have - our brains just don't work best that way.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sjones
Goldmember
Avatar
2,208 posts
Likes: 150
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
     
May 16, 2017 16:19 |  #6

I’ve heard a number of folks claim that digital or film provide the best learning tools.

The fact remains that, in the end, it depends on the person as to what pedagogical approach is most beneficial.

Moreover, what the teacher suggested was just one assignment, not a whole realignment of how the students typically photograph for the rest of their lives.

And this brings up the point that one does not have to submit to only one methodology; it’s not a zero sum option.

The following is my own experience, so it is completely anecdotal and personal, and it is not up for debate. It might not apply to anyone else on the planet, but that doesn’t matter since, in this particular case, I’m the only one that matters. However, I have a slight feeling that if something was good for me, it just might be good for a few other folks...maybe.

I started photography on serious level with digital, although I’m old enough to have shot with a Kodak Instamatic and other various film cameras (though never during this time knowing the definitions and functions of f-stop, focal length, ISO, and such).

Digital’s convenience, forgivability, and affordability was so significant that I might not have ever pursued photography seriously without the advent of digital.

And the ability to take lots of photos, good or bad, without the cost or logistical restraints of film certainly proved beneficial.
A few years in, and for various reasons, I switched to film. And yes, this process, for me, also proved instructive. I did have to slow down a bit. Others might not need “film” to put the mental breaks on, and that’s fine…that’s them. And by slowing down, I concentrated more on pre-visualization.

Stepping outside in Tokyo with only 19 exposures remaining was different, at least for me, than doing so with a high-capacity compact flash card.

Actually, even with digital, I was not one to take 15 different angled shots of the same subject, but the use of film forced a further degree of beneficial parsimony.

More importantly, the “effort” at pre-visualization became more consciously engrained and therefor more automatic. This is particularly important for doing candid street shots, where the scene exist for only a second anyway…there is no ‘other angle’ to try even if I was jacked up with 1,000 exposures at hand. So somewhat ironically, the slower approached improved my ability to react quicker, at least more successfully.

Did I get perfect shots always…no, the success rate actually remained roughly the same, maybe a little better, but of course, this is somewhat nominal, since the successful shots improved upon previously deemed ‘successful’ photos.

As for controlling exposure, I got more from reading Bryan Petersen’s “Understanding Exposure” and learning the zone system than I did from the histogram, as immensely helpful as it initially was.

Towards the end of my use of digital, I was shooting partial-spot (350D), pointing it at any object of any color and, based on its relation to 18 percent grey, manually adjusting accordingly. Since much of my shooting was and is outdoors, the Sunny 16 rule would suit fine most of the time.

Even with the DSLR, I was only using the one-shot mode and an old manual focus lens, meaning that I really wasn’t exploiting technology’s latest anyway.

And perhaps the best instruction I received, at least outside the mere practice of going out and photographing, was from studying photos: Good ones, bad ones. Mine, others. masters, amateurs…this is not an exercise codependent on either film or digital.

Also, as I’ve commented numerous times before on this thread, creativity can manifest from the most simplest of tools and methodology, for its greatest tool is the brain. And absolutely, limitations can in fact introduce reconsiderations that may or may not be advantageous, again, depending on the person.

What we do know, or at least as far as I’m concerned, decades of folks used film to take photos that have yet to be surpassed, especially in terms of creativity. Equaled, maybe, but not surpassed. So at a minimum, people growing up with either film, digital, or both have been capable of reaching similar heights. That is, both learning methodologies have empirically proved effective when considering final output.

So as to what each approach or combination of such contribute to or helps expedite the learning process will, once again, depend on the student. In other words, I would not outright dismiss one or the other approach. And if a teacher wants to replicate the ‘limitations of film’ for one assignment or even one month, I cannot fathom how that would be detrimental, but it could certainly prove beneficial.

After all, that simplicity can potentially help one center on the fundamentals, laying the groundwork for greater complexity, isn’t exactly a radical idea.

Finally, outside of learning, there is the experience. One of the main reasons I shoot film, though certainly not the only, is that I enjoy the process; and NO, trying to recreate this on a digital camera (taping over the LCD, low capacity cards, etc) does not suffice; not for me anyway.

We know most everyone is going to end up using digital, while film will remain niche at best. Consequently, introducing something different during the learning process can open options possibility overlooked in the normal course of development. And in this sense, I have no issue with teachers breaking away from the mainstream in the effort to expand the possibilities of choice.


Summer 2017 (external link)
Eggleston's photography is superb. Deal with it!
It's the Photographer (external link) | God Loves Photoshop (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,596 posts
Gallery: 127 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4248
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
Post edited over 1 year ago by airfrogusmc.
     
May 16, 2017 17:11 |  #7

I have taught photography at the college level. This is only one assignment and anything to shake things up is a good thing. To get people looking and thinking differently. I did it and when you are in a class it isn't a democracy. You can do the assignments or not. Drop the class. Take an incomplete.

Film is not a bad place to start in my opinion. It certainly didn't hurt me. I am a better photographer because I learned film and digital. Color and B&W. The zone system and having shot with 8X10, 4X5, medium format and 135 format and digital DSLRs and rangefinders. The more you know technically the better the odds are that you will not be hindered by technique when it comes to capturing vision.

Understanding what good B&W and color print should look like, where the bar is and where it has been set is also important. So knowing how to print color and B&W has made me a better photographer and I am all digital at this point in time.

I also wanted to add that some of the classes I thought were useless for me to have take at the time I was in college wound up being some of the most important to me as a photographer.

My advice is learn all you can. It is a big world out there and try and learn as much as you can over you entire life. It's a journey and all the things you experience and learn only make the journey richer. We all know the destination so enjoy the journey while it lasts.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
Avatar
8,575 posts
Gallery: 10 photos
Likes: 1747
Joined Jun 2011
Location: The Uwharrie Mts, NC
     
May 16, 2017 18:16 |  #8

Lots of good commentary here.

I kinda feel like the "assignment" is more likely an Internet meme rather than real life.

I learned on film and learned the importance of intent when taking a picture, spending a ton of money was not going to happen.

Today when I take personal pics I take very few because I know I am only half way finished when I turn off the camera. For paid work I find myself fighting the urge to snap a bunch of pics. And I rarely do unless I am just setting up a shot and treating it like a Polaroid. Then once I have the shot the way I want it, I put my hand in front of the lens and take a pic as a marker where to start really looking at the pics.

For other commercial work I go back to making sure I have the shot before releasing the shutter.

I tend to agree with the above poster who said, make them take 10000 pics and edit them. lol. Hopefully that's a lesson that really makes its point.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Not in gear database: Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 3x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DreDaze
happy with myself for not saying anything stupid
Avatar
17,836 posts
Gallery: 22 photos
Likes: 1691
Joined Mar 2006
Location: S.F. Bay Area
     
May 16, 2017 21:18 |  #9

I feel like for a combination of thinking in filming, and experimenting with the digital/learning from mistakes, he should just give them like a 256mb card...allow them to delete what's terrible, but limits their total output


Andre or Dre
gear list
Instagram (external link)
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,328 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 2068
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (3 edits in all)
     
May 16, 2017 21:56 |  #10

harcosparky wrote in post #18355913 (external link)
Challenge to his students .......

His purpose was obvious ...... THINK BEFORE YOU SHOOT !!!!!

Even film photographers would often acknowledge that if they only got 3-5 keepers out of a roll of 135-36, it was a good thing!
I think the 'think before you shoot' is a reasonable assessment of the purpose of the exercise, not to get 36 keepers. Similarly, a 135 shooter might go out for a day of shooting with Large Format and only come back with a few exposures, even only 2-3 being keepers. I have gone out for a day with large format, and come back with only a SINGLE sheet of film having been exposed!
A different way to putting it, rather than 'think before you shoot' is 'be much more selective in taking any shot'...the same reason why photographers only come back with 5-6 large format vs. 36 in the 135 format...scarcer and more expensive resources at stake, so 'be very deliberate before making every shot and make every exposure be less prone the technical and compositional errors'.

It is the antithesis of what many digital shooters do 'because every exposure is free'...take 1000-3000 shots in a single day!

If you are in a rifle squad defending a hilltop, and you have only a magazine and a half of bullets left, you want to make sure that every bullet is used to its maximum, and not waste any bullets into tree trunks because your life may depend upon it.

Whether or not the above represents the rationale of your instructor is a completely different discussion.


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,154 posts
Gallery: 140 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 2923
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
Post edited over 1 year ago by Tom Reichner.
     
May 17, 2017 01:10 |  #11

Wilt wrote in post #18356513 (external link)
. . . a 135 shooter might go out for a day of shooting with Large Format and only come back with a few exposures, even only 2-3 being keepers. I have gone out for a day with large format, and come back with only a SINGLE sheet of film having been exposed!

I have gone out for a full day of photography and not taken a single frame. This actually happens with some degree of regularity. In fact, it happened just last week; a morning at the marsh followed up with the afternoon and evening in the mountains, just below snow line. Not one click of the shutter the entire day, and this is with digital gear.

It is not really the type of gear that limits one's ability to take photos. Rather, it depends on what one finds. If I don't find anything to shoot, then I don't take any pictures. This would be the same whether using high-FPS digital gear or large format film gear. The difference between the two is that if I do happen to encounter a good opportunity, then I can capture more keepers if I am able to rip off more frames in a given amount of time.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,596 posts
Gallery: 127 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4248
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
Post edited over 1 year ago by airfrogusmc. (4 edits in all)
     
May 17, 2017 06:23 |  #12

Wilt as a former Marine and a expert marksman I can tell you I will take one well placed round over a hundred not so well placed rounds.

I totally agree that working with a view camera slows you down. Tilt, shift, rise, fall and the image upside down on the ground glass and working with a loop to check focus will slow you down.

"The ‘machine-gun’ approach to photography – by which many negatives are made with the hope that one will be good – is fatal to serious results". - Ansel Adams

The real issue isn't the gear but the ability to see but working with a view camera for a while is a great discipline and that discipline will help you in all kinds of ways when you pick up a small camera again.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
harcosparky
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
2,412 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 46
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Harford County - ( Bel Air ) Maryland
     
May 17, 2017 07:45 |  #13

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18356330 (external link)
Film is not a bad place to start in my opinion. It certainly didn't hurt me.

I have had two children and several nieces and nephews take photography courses at three different colleges.

All three institutions have very good photography courses, using digital equipment. In order to get into those classes a prerequisite was Photography 101.

Photography 101 was a course that only allowed MANUAL FILM CAMERAS .... students were taken through the entire process from beginning to end and when they finished, were quite capable with their camera and in a darkroom.

I still have the Pentax K1000film cameras they used for their studies.

You could, with instructors permission bypass the Photography 101 requirements, but you needed to have a portfolio of you work that proved your abilities.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
harcosparky
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
2,412 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 46
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Harford County - ( Bel Air ) Maryland
     
May 17, 2017 07:56 |  #14

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18356599 (external link)
It is not really the type of gear that limits one's ability to take photos. Rather, it depends on what one finds. If I don't find anything to shoot, then I don't take any pictures.

This brings up another interesting assignment I remember from years ago ......

INSTRUCTOR: Go for a walk and shoot every letter of the alphabet, but you cannot take photographs of the actual letter from signs and such. You must find the letters in places they were not meant to be, like that crack in the concrete in the form of the letter "Z", or that knot hole in a tree trunk that looks like the letter "Q".

ME: That was a fun assignment.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
joedlh
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,246 posts
Gallery: 32 photos
Likes: 387
Joined Dec 2007
Location: Long Island, NY, N. America, Sol III, Orion Spur, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Cluster, Laniakea.
     
May 17, 2017 08:06 |  #15

harcosparky wrote in post #18356716 (external link)
Photography 101 was a course that only allowed MANUAL FILM CAMERAS .... students were taken through the entire process from beginning to end and when they finished, were quite capable with their camera and in a darkroom.

You could, with instructors permission bypass the Photography 101 requirements, but you needed to have a portfolio of you work that proved your abilities.

The point of this appears to be administrative more than photographic. It's one way of making sure unserious students are kept out of the advanced classes. As you noted, a respectable portfolio is an alternative. As a teacher, my preference would be to not force students to incur the cost of a film camera in order to become a serious student. Unless they were interested in the history of photography.

Film photography has gotten a reputation among the younger set as giving one the impression that one stands out from the crowd and is a "serious" photographer. I don't buy it. was a film photographer for many years. There's little that is special about it. It's an expensive and polluting industry. Stand out from the crowd by learning to do exceptional work.


Joe
Gear: Kodak Instamatic, Polaroid Swinger. Oh you meant gear now. :rolleyes:
http://photo.joedlh.ne​t (external link)
Editing ok

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

7,339 views & 40 likes for this thread
Photography Teacher's Challenge
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is juancoca89
827 guests, 407 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.