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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 16 May 2017 (Tuesday) 05:26
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Wilt
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May 17, 2017 08:14 |  #16

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18356599 (external link)
I have gone out for a full day of photography and not taken a single frame. This actually happens with some degree of regularity. In fact, it happened just last week; a morning at the marsh followed up with the afternoon and evening in the mountains, just below snow line. Not one click of the shutter the entire day, and this is with digital gear
.


Hey, Tom, what happened...you forget to insert the CF card into the camera after downloading pictures to the PC?  :p I've done that one, too!


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May 17, 2017 09:00 |  #17

Wilt wrote in post #18356734 (external link)
Hey, Tom, what happened...you forget to insert the CF card into the camera after downloading pictures to the PC?  :p I've done that one, too!


Me to and I do think it happens to many. Some days the eyes are working and some days not so much.




  
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Luckless
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May 17, 2017 10:45 |  #18

I've picked up a camera a time or two without the memory card, but so far haven't managed to get out somewhere without any at all on hand. Last time I remember doing that was at a weekend long event where I had pulled a card out to set it up and dump to the laptop for later processing while I shot the next game, then tried to photograph something happening before I had swapped the next clean card into the camera. Good times.

That said, I also have had many photo outings where I came back without a single frame. I fairly often pull a camera out to frame up and study a scene as I come by it, but specifically decide to not take the photo because I'm not happy with what I have in the viewfinder.

At this point I am a very firm believer in digital as an entry point for learning because of its ability to clearly and quickly provide demonstrations of fundamental principles of the mechanics of photography.
Stick a digital camera in manual mode, point it at things, and walk through different settings. Look at the results, talk about what you're seeing, and carry on experimenting.

Studying composition - Pick a general principle, such as rule of thirds, then go out and frame stuff up with and without applying the concept, then review the results.

The use of digital strongly encourages exploration and understanding of photography - The use of film encourages photographers to take a far narrower path of understanding out of fear of 'wasting film'. Sure, you can learn a way of using the camera, but I've found it a poor tool for exploring photography as a whole.

Once someone has established themselves with a solid understanding of how and why things work, then they are far better equipped to branch out and explore different tools to help them meet their personal goals and styles within the photographic arts.

As for the firearms metaphors on the subject:
- One of the longest standing records for a confirmed long distance kill with a rifle in the history of warfare was done with an M2 Browning machine gun.
- Proper use of a machine gun is to not 'keep spraying wildly and hope you hit something', but rather to deliver carefully place rapid fire into specific target areas as required to meet the objectives of the moment. Their ability to rapidly fire rounds is part of what allows them to do the job required of them. (Using phrases like 'machine gunning' as a negative term with regards to photography really just shows a gross misunderstanding of modern firearms usage...)


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Wilt
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May 17, 2017 12:02 |  #19

Luckless wrote in post #18356818 (external link)
As for the firearms metaphors on the subject:
- One of the longest standing records for a confirmed long distance kill with a rifle in the history of warfare was done with an M2 Browning machine gun.

Carlos Hathcock held that record at just under 1.5 miles, one of a few individuals who used the M2 in a sniping role in those times, and the success led to the adoption of the .50 BMG cartridge as a viable sniper round. It was not used as a machine gun by Hathcock, however, but as a semi-automatic rifle with sniper scope custom mounted. Now there are a number of sniper rifles using the same cartridge for its kill range, which is now just under 1.55 miles distant.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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May 17, 2017 12:11 |  #20

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18356683 (external link)
Wilt as a former Marine and a expert marksman I can tell you I will take one well placed round over a hundred not so well placed rounds.

It really depends on one's objective, doesn't it?

I mean, as a marine, if you were in combat and your mission was to take out 100 enemy targets, then 100 well placed rounds would be far superior to 1 well placed round.

.


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May 17, 2017 13:06 |  #21

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18356890 (external link)
It really depends on one's objective, doesn't it?

I mean, as a marine, if you were in combat and your mission was to take out 100 enemy targets, then 100 well placed rounds would be far superior to 1 well placed round.

You've got him there, Tom--but wait. The comparison was with 100 not so well-placed rounds. If the 100 are poorly enough placed, the 1 round might still surpass them.


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May 17, 2017 13:59 |  #22

Nogo wrote in post #18349117 (external link)
Using phrases like 'machine gunning' as a negative term with regards to photography really just shows a gross misunderstanding of modern firearms usage...

Probably driven by perception of how machine guns are used in the movies. The notion comes from images of, say, a mobster who busts into a crowded room and blindly fires. This, of course, is much different than Rambo's skill using a machine gun in targeted, short spurts (I'm making an assumption that Rambo's represents a semblance of reality and that he actually did use machine guns in this way... I am neither a firearms nor a Rambo expert).

That said, when people frown upon "spray and pray", they are not referring to sports photographers who select their photography subject, plan to acquire focus, and use their cameras' accelerated fps features.

OhLook wrote in post #18356937 (external link)
You've got him there, Tom--but wait. The comparison was with 100 not so well-placed rounds. If the 100 are poorly enough placed, the 1 round might still surpass them.

Speaking of objective, I think Tom meant that 100 not-so-well-placed-but-moderately-or-passably-so would achieve a better result than 1 superbly-placed round if those 100 rounds kill or maim 2 or more targets. It would be virtually impossible for 1 well-placed round to surpass a better result than 1 (unless you shoot something like a fuel tank and it causes a chain reaction and toppling of dominoes across the battlefield... ha, another movie scenario).


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May 17, 2017 15:24 |  #23

Nathan wrote in post #18356982 (external link)
Probably driven by perception of how machine guns are used in the movies. The notion comes from images of, say, a mobster who busts into a crowded room and blindly fires. This, of course, is much different than Rambo's skill using a machine gun in targeted, short spurts (I'm making an assumption that Rambo's represents a semblance of reality and that he actually did use machine guns in this way... I am neither a firearms nor a Rambo expert).

That said, when people frown upon "spray and pray", they are not referring to sports photographers who select their photography subject, plan to acquire focus, and use their cameras' accelerated fps features.

Speaking of objective, I think Tom meant that 100 not-so-well-placed-but-moderately-or-passably-so would achieve a better result than 1 superbly-placed round if those 100 rounds kill or maim 2 or more targets. It would be virtually impossible for 1 well-placed round to surpass a better result than 1 (unless you shoot something like a fuel tank and it causes a chain reaction and toppling of dominoes across the battlefield... ha, another movie scenario).


It does rather depend on the type of operation you are involved in. When assaulting a fixed position it can be very useful to just drop rounds in the close vicinity of the enemy, since if done well it tends to inhibit the defender from retaliating towards you, at least in an effective manner. For the defender though a well placed round is one that will remove the target from further immediate, and medium term, action against you. I am very pleased to say that my nine years military service did not involve any deployments to operational zones, and anyway I was not in a first line combat role. I was first and foremost a technician, keeping the air defence radar systems turning and burning, with a secondary role in NBC Decontam. So it was unusual for me to be in a Sanger with a rifle for most of my service.

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May 17, 2017 19:26 |  #24

Luckless wrote in post #18356818 (external link)
...The use of digital strongly encourages exploration and understanding of photography - The use of film encourages photographers to take a far narrower path of understanding out of fear of 'wasting film'. Sure, you can learn a way of using the camera, but I've found it a poor tool for exploring photography as a whole...

"Encourages photographers..." Which photographers? If you're speaking for yourself, that's fine. But if you're making a universal assessment, then that is a bit presumptuous. You might have found film cameras "a poor tool for exploring photography," and I won't debate that as a subjective statement, nor as one that others might consider.

Actually, to some extent, I don't wholly disagree, at least that starting off with digital has numerous benefits, as I noted in my previous thread.

However, what inspires creativity differs for different people, and feature laden mechanisms for any particular art by no means guarantee superior facilitation of creativity...that correlation does not exist.

For decades, a number of excellent photographers used film cameras to explore and understand photography, and their collective catalogue exhibits absolutely no inferiority to their modern digital counterparts.

Not everyone needs a 'Swiss knife" to find their style, stoke their imagination, or create their art.


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May 17, 2017 19:53 |  #25

The utility of digital as a tool for learning technical knowledge is without a doubt an excellent learning tool, for learning the causal relationship of change of a control vs. visible effect to the image...it far surpasses film for many areas of learning.

However, learning technical understanding is very different from learning discipline in not indescriminately wasting shots simply because of digital's lack of immediately observable cost penalties to the shooter. (In the digital world one can recognize the need to be stingy when the only available memory is near full, or the battery in the camera is near depletion!)

And not wasting limited resources is also very different than multiple other beneficial purposes to setting the camera at 5 or 10 fps in the capture of action, which can be had.

Just as firing bullets should be done differently in different circumstances depending upon goal, so should the setting of the digital camera's firing mode...and excercises such as the one assigned by the photo course instructor teaches discipline and how to be a bit more 'choosy' in pressing the shutter button.


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May 17, 2017 21:04 |  #26

Wilt wrote in post #18356734 (external link)
Hey, Tom, what happened...you forget to insert the CF card into the camera after downloading pictures to the PC?  :p I've done that one, too!

Just because one goes out to spend a day photographing things does not mean that one will find anything worth photographing.

Often times, a day afield ends up serving as a day of scouting, so that one will be more knowledgable in the future about when and where certain opportunities may occur. That's fine with me, I understand that quality wildlife and nature images require patience and don't happen every time out......and if I'm not going to acquire a quality image, then why shoot anything at all?

.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18356755 (external link)
Me to and I do think it happens to many. Some days the eyes are working and some days not so much.

I don't see it so much as the eyes working or not. For me, it is about what I find.

If I am out to photograph nesting Northern Flickers, and I do not find any Flicker nests, then there simply aren't any targets to shoot. Same with herons in flight - if no herons come within range when they fly into the rookery, then there just aren't any heron-in-flight images to be had, and the shutter button goes unpressed. Same with rutting Whitetail Deer, Bighorn Sheep, etc, etc, etc. I can't shoot something if it isn't there.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
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"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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May 17, 2017 21:21 |  #27

OhLook wrote in post #18356937 (external link)
You've got him there, Tom--but wait. The comparison was with 100 not so well-placed rounds. If the 100 are poorly enough placed, the 1 round might still surpass them.

Right. I get that. But my point was that it is wrong to assume that the photographer shooting long 100 frame bursts is merely hoping for one of those frames to turn out great. Many photographers who shoot 100 frame bursts want every single one of those frames to be stellar images. My goal when shooting is not to come away with one truly great frame - it is to come away with many truly great frames.

When it comes to this "spray and pray" (a misnomer, by the way) debate, people seem to have this mistaken sense of it being about quantity vs. quality. They are wrong - many of us are seeking both quality and quantity, with the quality in no way diminished by an increase of quantity.

What I said about the 100 well-placed shots is exactly what I meant. We should not be comparing one perfectly placed round to 100 poorly placed rounds. We should be comparing 1 perfectly placed round to 100 perfectly placed rounds.

There are those of us who have astronomical demands on both the quality and the quantity of the imagery that we are seeking to produce. Demands that we will never be able to fulfill, but those unrealistic, superlative demands that we have on ourselves are what keep us ticking.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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airfrogusmc
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May 17, 2017 22:08 |  #28

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18356890 (external link)
It really depends on one's objective, doesn't it?

I mean, as a marine, if you were in combat and your mission was to take out 100 enemy targets, then 100 well placed rounds would be far superior to 1 well placed round.

.

One shot, one kill. 500 meters clean head shot is certainly a lot more effective than pray and spray.

It should always be about quality.




  
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May 17, 2017 22:35 |  #29

Because nobody in a combat situation ever laid down suppressing fire! ;-)a

As an exercise, the assignment is valid but it does smell a bit of old fartism.

And if Cartier-Bresson was correct that your first 10000 photos are your worst, then you may as well get them out of the way quickly :D


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Tom ­ Reichner
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May 18, 2017 02:04 |  #30

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18357309 (external link)
One shot, one kill. 500 meters clean head shot is certainly a lot more effective than pray and spray.

Right, of course. Agreed.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18357309 (external link)
One shot, one kill.

It should always be about quality.

Yes, one shot, one kill.

But also:

100 shots, 100 kills.

500 shots, 500 kills.

It can be about both ultimate quality and great quantity. One need not suffer due to the other. It need not be either / or. We can have absolutely precise, exacting accuracy and hundreds of rapidly fired shots, every single one of which is combined with that incredibly precise accuracy.

I keep saying this over and over and over, and yet it seems like I am not being understood. It doesn't have to be one or the other, whether in war or in photography.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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