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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 16 Jun 2017 (Friday) 05:44
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Outdoor strobe, TTL or manual ? Recommendations of brands/types?

 
CanonYouCan
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Post edited over 1 year ago by CanonYouCan. (2 edits in all)
     
Jun 16, 2017 05:44 |  #1

I'm not so experienced at manual settings, but it's not so difficult to put the power higher/lower on a strobe :)
I plan to buy one for outdoor shoots, should I buy a cheaper manual one or an automatic TTL strobe ?
And what about the batterypack ?

I saw Yonguo made a good price/quality manual strobe for the first time!
It's a bit older and they don't seem to make any new types, was that a good one ?
Yongnuo YN300W E-TTL

In past I worked with 2 Yongnuo 600 EX RT flashes (TTL) and automatic it's always easy.
Any recomendations of types/brands (available in Europe) may be posted also here below, hope to receive some replies, thanks!!!!


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
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Lighting : Godox AD600B TTL + Godox V860II-S + X1T-S
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MalVeauX
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Jun 16, 2017 07:32 |  #2

Heya,

Do you have a budget?

Also, by outdoors, are you talking about having the ability to overpower the sun?

Is this for a single person subject, or groups?

There's a lot more to it than just having a light.

You can get internal battery portable high power strobes now, in the 600 Ws range. I'd start there. If your budget allows, definitely get TTL/HSS capabilities. Godox has a good 600Ws with TTL, several flavors for an appropriate price.

Then there's the discussion of modifiers...

Very best,


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CanonYouCan
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Post edited over 1 year ago by CanonYouCan.
     
Jun 16, 2017 15:49 |  #3

Yes +-$600 and overpowering the sun.
Normally a 300W would be sufficient ?
It's for only 1 model, yes first I thought about a manual but this has nog HSS, so better a TTL....

This one seems nice here, but most sell them per 2 in kit : Profoto B1 500 AirTTL
For one it's in my pricerange


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
Sigma 50 1.4 Art | Sigma 85 1.4 Art

Lighting : Godox AD600B TTL + Godox V860II-S + X1T-S
Modifiers: 60cm Collapsible Silver Beautydish + grid | Godox 120cm Octagon softbox + grid
Tripod: Vanguard Alta 253CT carbon

  
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MalVeauX
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Jun 16, 2017 16:15 |  #4

Check out:

Godox AD600 Wistro
Orlit 610 / Jinbei 610

There are rebrands of course, so you just have to look up 600Ws ETTL/HSS capable strobes in your country and see what the rebranded OEM is.

A 300Ws is not sufficient for overpowering the sun in a lot of situations, depending on the modifier. Sure, you can do it with 300Ws at very close proximity to the subject with a very efficient small modifier. But if you want to do full body with 3~4 feet of modifier to subject working distance, 300Ws isn't enough in full sun. Even a 600Ws can have a hard time in full sun if you're using an inefficient modifier a few feet from the subject. But, a 600Ws has more room to make it happen. That extra stop of light matters a lot. Worth every penny if you want to go up against the sun. Heck even if it just means not shooting at full power for every shot, that's worth it.

I use a 600Ws and in a large 60" modifier, at very close range, at full power I can get F18 out of it. This is barely enough to take on full sun.
I recently started using a 10" reflector and I can get F35 reliably out of that thing at 6 feet, and F20 at 12 feet. Overpowering the sun at 12 feet.
That allows me to shoot at lower power, because it's more efficient, and get more shots from the battery, and with faster recycle times. This matters in HSS, as it costs you power.
That's the difference between efficient and inefficient modifiers.
Also, if you're working solo (no assistant), using a big modifier outdoor also can pose issues (wind sails...).

Very best,


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CanonYouCan
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Post edited over 1 year ago by CanonYouCan. (3 edits in all)
     
Jun 16, 2017 17:19 |  #5

Thanks!
With my speedlites I flashed backwards into a silver umbrella with white diffusor cloth.
Like this http://www.benl.ebay.b​e …870d51:g:HukAAO​SwImRYPjhc (external link)

Is it the same with a studiolight or do you flash from the back of the modifier with a bowens mount for example straight through the white cloth at the front of the softbox ?
Probably with some wind I have to buy a sturdier tripod :)

A honeycomb is not interesting for a softbox, only for a beautydish or does it have some effect on a softbox ?


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
Sigma 50 1.4 Art | Sigma 85 1.4 Art

Lighting : Godox AD600B TTL + Godox V860II-S + X1T-S
Modifiers: 60cm Collapsible Silver Beautydish + grid | Godox 120cm Octagon softbox + grid
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MalVeauX
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MalVeauX. (3 edits in all)
     
Jun 16, 2017 17:24 |  #6

CanonYouCan wrote in post #18380134 (external link)
Thanks!
With my speedlites I flashed backwards into a silver umbrella with white diffusor cloth.
Like this http://www.benl.ebay.b​e …870d51:g:HukAAO​SwImRYPjhc (external link)

Is it the same with a studiolight or do you flash from the back of the modifier with a bowens mount for example straight through the white cloth at the front of the softbox ?

You can use them the same way. Just depends on the modifier mounting and your light's mounting speedring. Umbrella types are super universal and will mount in most options. When you pick a light just make sure the spring ring is a universal type, like Bowens or whatever you need for your majority of modifiers.

Your modifier is a reflecting type.
There are softboxes that mount the light in the rear and fire through it into layers of diffuse material.
Depends on your modifier and how you want to do it.

Mine is Bowens or an umbrella shaft, so I just make sure my modifiers mount via those; and I can use them with any of my lights, be they speedlites, a strobe, etc.

I use a similar if not the same modifier often, that is reflective with both speedlites and my strobe; it's an umbrella shaft so it mounts on either and works the same. I started with a 48" Octa (mounts in rear via Bowens), but it's big, heavy, off center, etc, and is better used with an assistant or indoor and was expensive. I moved to Brolly boxes (umbrella style softboxes) like the 47" umbrella style softbox like you linked, I have several and I like them I use them with speedlites, strobes, etc universally, inexpensive and produces just as good light as my more expensive stuff. And now, I more often am using a simple reflector (in my case a 10" reflector), to get even more efficient light without having a big modifier that catches in the wind, etc. I have used it a few times now and I'm happy with it instead of big modifiers at this point, but it requires more careful use because it can throw hard light, but I can get F35 out of it like a fireball, which opens lots of doors.

Ex (Bowens & Umbrella Mount):

Godox 47" Brolly box (umbrella mount)

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7289/26835245031_e5ec795db4_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/GTkD​qt  (external link) MDsetup123 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

60" black back umbrella (umbrella mount)

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5731/30631700961_65846e170e_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/NEPt​vc  (external link) IMG_4708 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

48" Octa Fotodiox EZPro (bowens mount)

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/333/19820921904_e99382c232_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/wcvp​wQ  (external link) IMG_4726_marked (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

10" Reflector by photoSel (bowens mount)

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4246/34181894403_2d771c2ae6_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/U5x9​jX  (external link) RoveLight600Ws_10InchR​eflector_Demo (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

+++++++++++++++

I was doing fine with large modifiers, but ultimately its harder with the wind and I'm work solo. I also do more groups these days, so I need more distance of light source to subject to get enough spread.

Here's the cheap $30 Impact black back 60" umbrella:

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4270/33972587963_b87b28bdb0_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/TL3o​Pe  (external link) IMG_5744 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Here's the cheap $30 47" brolly box (like what you linked) that I use often:

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8459/28346840561_2f5ee01c60_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/KbUY​7n  (external link) IMG_4014mark (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Here's the cheap $48 10" reflector (I'm using this now more often, as it can be used in the wind and is much much more efficient):

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4246/34396948133_5e916ab099_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Upxm​iT  (external link) IMG_5887 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Very best,

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CanonYouCan
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Jun 16, 2017 18:14 |  #7

Thanks, and another question : i see there are also manual monolights which have HSS capability through thanks to the transmitter (example the Yongnuo 622 transmitter).
So this isn't the same as real TTL monolights with HSS, there is a difference ?


Sony A7 III | Metabones V | Canon 17-40 F4 L | 24-70 2.8 L | 70-200 2.8L II
Sigma 50 1.4 Art | Sigma 85 1.4 Art

Lighting : Godox AD600B TTL + Godox V860II-S + X1T-S
Modifiers: 60cm Collapsible Silver Beautydish + grid | Godox 120cm Octagon softbox + grid
Tripod: Vanguard Alta 253CT carbon

  
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MalVeauX
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Jun 16, 2017 18:21 |  #8

CanonYouCan wrote in post #18380164 (external link)
Thanks, and another question : i see there are also manual monolights which have HSS capability through thanks to the transmitter (example the Yongnuo 622 transmitter).
So this isn't the same as real TTL monolights with HSS, there is a difference ?

There are several different things.

There are totally manual lights without HSS and without ETTL.
There are manual lights that have HSS as an option*.
There are ETTL capable lights with HSS.

*some lights achieve HSS via long burn instead of pulses. Long burn can have a gradient. Pulses in general are superior. The newer stuff uses pulses.

Some of us use transceivers that carry the HSS signal to the light, like the YN622, but only because the stock transceiver for the light doesn't (or doesn't do it well). Newer options, like the ones listed, will work with ETTL/HSS with the stock transceiver. My light is an old manual light with HSS, but no ETTL and the stock transmitter did not do HSS, so I have to use YN622 to do that to get around it. Not ideal. But works. A newer system shouldn't have to do this.

Very best,


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Angmo
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Angmo.
     
Jun 16, 2017 20:31 |  #9

I use Elinchrom strobes. Many of my strobes are able to run Hi-Sync (HS Elinchroms solution) by just using their new Skyport HS trigger. You can even tune the trigger to the optimal timing of the strobe firing.

My Ranger RX AS Speed with S head battery/head pack will now support 1/8000 shutter speed. No need for me to buy a new strobe. Just the new trigger. The Ranger is 1,100 ws. Plenty of photons.

I'm happy. I never shoot TTL with strobes, so I'm good to go, spending just $250.


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RicoTudor
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Jun 17, 2017 19:23 |  #10

Angmo wrote in post #18380234 (external link)
My Ranger RX AS Speed with S head battery/head pack will now support 1/8000 shutter speed.

Elinchrom ignoramous speaking. :) Is this shutter speed being achieved with long-burn or pulsed?


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Jun 17, 2017 19:34 |  #11

RicoTudor wrote in post #18380828 (external link)
Elinchrom ignoramous speaking. :) Is this shutter speed being achieved with long-burn or pulsed?

Just the strobe being itself. No changes at all. It's all in the timing in the new Elinchrom Trigger. Controls light power, modeling lights... and timing of when the strobe fires.

Elinchroms website explains how. Broncolor does the same. You can tune the trigger to precisely when the strobe fires too.

http://elinchrom.com/l​earn/hss-hs.html (external link)

Balanced flash/ambient and sun overpowered to the max---

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Nikons, Rolleiflexes, Elinchroms, Billinghams

  
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Jun 17, 2017 20:51 as a reply to  @ Angmo's post |  #12

Thanks for the informative link. Elinchrom is using the long-burn method with trigger timing tuned for their gear, and recommend the heads with discharge of longer duration.


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Jun 17, 2017 21:31 as a reply to  @ RicoTudor's post |  #13

And older strobes work well too. Not just the new ones. Depends on your camera too Nikon
seem to work better.


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jake14mw
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Jun 18, 2017 07:47 |  #14

MalVeaux,

Thanks for posting your images of your setup. Quick question on your bungee cord for the light stand. Do you find that this method works better than just putting stakes at the outside of the lightstand legs?




  
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MalVeauX
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MalVeauX. (4 edits in all)
     
Jun 18, 2017 07:58 |  #15

jake14mw wrote in post #18381139 (external link)
MalVeaux,

Thanks for posting your images of your setup. Quick question on your bungee cord for the light stand. Do you find that this method works better than just putting stakes at the outside of the lightstand legs?

I do it on the base so that the pull is centered and it helps with stability. These stands are built to be centered with gravity, which is why you use counter weights. If you just anchor the legs, it's not the same as simply adding force to the center. Also, even the shortest bungee around wouldn't strap over the legs and provide much force. I do the center because I can drive the stakes in hard and stretch the bungee over the center column, adding actual force. Hopefully that makes sense. But if you try to put force, down, via bungees on the legs, you'll find you cannot actually get more force there. The higher center column allows you to really stretch the bungees, which in turn gives you the ability to apply a strong (several pounds worth) downward force centered on the column, which really anchors and adds stability. But, again, it's not a failsafe against serious wind/gusts.

I've used it really high in the air with no hands in some breeze, but I don't recommend it if there are gusts. I've championed the use of stakes and bungees outdoors a long time, but these days, honestly I'm tired of dealing with all that and have moved to reflectors. I'm shooting more groups and kids and sometimes no where near soft ground. The other day, I had to have someone hold the 60" umbrella because it was turning the light around, it was so strong with the breeze. Had nothing to do with toppling over, but turning in place. There are times when the wind is just too much.

That said, I don't recommend it in loose sand, no beaches, etc. It's good in solid soil, clay, areas with grass (which form a strong network on the topsoil), etc if you're solo. With an assistant, you can go anywhere anyways and not worry so much. But if solo and you're not wanting to see your $500~1k light setup hit the ground, don't risk it in serious wind. Even then, a gust can happen out of no where. Again, I've migrated more towards small reflectors that can take wind gusts more and more having done this method here for a few years now.

Stakes into solid ground around 45 degrees. They're 9 inches, so they can be pushed down pretty far. More surface area, more grip, the deeper you can go. Even in relatively loose sand, as long as you drive it down deep, it can provide some grip. The bungees are stretched so up and around the column, not quite maximum stretch, but enough to apply a strong pull force towards the stakes. Two of them balanced out provide a lot of downward pull.

Now, imagine putting those bungees over the legs (no where to grip, so it will slip and slide). Imagine trying to get downward pull anywhere, there's really no good place for it. And if a wind gust happens, it will pull up and once all that weight is off center, it will likely go down. I wouldn't strap it via the legs. The only thing I'd put on legs are sand bags.

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5702/22745465232_35d502266c_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/ADWs​nE  (external link) IMG_8962 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

+++++++++++++++

I started shopping, testing, and ended up going with this 10 inch reflector. Not as big as a beauty dish, not heavy, small enough to not be a big wind catcher. Efficient, outputs F20 at full power at 12 feet with my 600Ws, and I actually dial down around 1/4th and 1/8th in HSS at 6 feet or so often in the sun with it, room to spare, with a 65 degree spread. I just aim it up a little to feather light and not just blast the ground with light. The feathered edges of light from it are not that harsh, so it works well (like a dish). I went this route recently because I can back it up significantly, blanket several people with light, and still have enough to combat the sun, without worry of wind gusts. I've used it a lot since I got it and I really like how simple it is, how fast it is to just set my light down and go, not having to drive stakes, or fiddle with things (while chasing kids around). I can plop it, aim it, shoot.

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4219/34181857133_dbdf1ddd58_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/U5wX​fn  (external link) 12_Foot_600Ws_10InchRe​flector_Demo (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Again, aimed up, so the spreading light feathers, you don't get the hard light hitting the foreground, and the light on the subject is still soft enough (not super soft), but careful placement and timing you can avoid bad shadows, while over powering the sun, with considerable distance, and no worry about wind or anything. Lots of spread, so the subject can move a little and still get plenty of light (this matters to me as kids don't sit still or stay in one spot, ever).

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4274/35076230221_acb23f0d19_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/VryR​d2  (external link) IMG_5886 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Very best,

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Outdoor strobe, TTL or manual ? Recommendations of brands/types?
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