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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 28 Jun 2017 (Wednesday) 23:15
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6d2 is here.

 
idkdc
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Jul 01, 2017 20:01 |  #436

Bassat wrote in post #18392059 (external link)
I disagree (without a law degree). If I own my camera, and Canon does not, Canon has no standing to claim that ANYTHING I DO TO MY CAMERA affects them one iota. From where I sit, that case would never get to court. Canon has no more right to claim damage than you do, if I choose to do something to my camera. Surely courts and lawyers will be busy for decades with this one.

They're not approaching you the consumer, just Magic Lantern. I really can't recall or find the article though, maybe it's somewhere on the ML website or blog. I thought it was for the 1DX and 1DXII cameras, but really can't remember since I read it more than a year ago.


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Bassat
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Jul 01, 2017 20:02 |  #437

Talley wrote in post #18392055 (external link)
Yup, but they own the software in it and can easily impose penalties for hacking into their encryption.

Only if you tell them you did it. ML can write all the software they want. Software, in and of itself, belongs to the individual who writes it. Same as any other copyright. How is Canon going to find out you put ML on your camera?

I can buy a Dell computer with WIN X.n on it. The next day, if I install RedHat 9, or DamnSmallLinux, on it, does Dell or Microsoft have any claim to damages? Methinks not.


Tom

  
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idkdc
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Jul 01, 2017 20:05 |  #438

Bassat wrote in post #18392065 (external link)
Only if you tell them you did it. ML can write all the software they want. Software, in and of itself, belongs to the individual who writes it. Same as any other copyright. How is Canon going to find out you put ML on your camera?

I can buy a Dell computer with WIN X.n on it. The next day, if I install RedHat 9, or DamnSmallLinux, on it, does Dell or Microsoft have any claim to damages? Methinks not.

X86 architecture is well documented and out there. Canon's is not. Anyways, pointless to discuss this without finding the original source.


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Bassat
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Jul 01, 2017 20:06 |  #439

idkdc wrote in post #18392068 (external link)
X86 architecture is well documented and out there. Canon's is not. Anyways, pointless to discuss this without finding the original source.

Agreed. This is a sidebar. Back to the 6DII.


Tom

  
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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited 11 months ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Jul 01, 2017 20:08 |  #440

Bassat wrote in post #18392059 (external link)
I disagree (without a law degree). If I own my camera, and Canon does not, Canon has no standing to claim that ANYTHING I DO TO MY CAMERA affects them one iota. From where I sit, that case would never get to court. Canon has no more right to claim damage than you do, if I choose to do something to my camera. Surely courts and lawyers will be busy for decades with this one.

I am not talking about YOU. I am talking about ML.

I suspect that even a small team of lawyers could pretty easily get a case in front of a judge simply through obfuscation of how firmware and hardware interact. Throw in enough technical gobbledygook and bam, court date set simply because the judge has no idea wtf is going on.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Not in gear database: Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 3x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

  
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idkdc
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Post edited 11 months ago by idkdc. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 01, 2017 20:10 |  #441

Found the "article:"http://nofilmschool.co​m …y-hack-firmware-1d-x-1d-c (external link).

Joe Marine
January 9, 2013
Canon May 'Bring the Might of Its Legal Team' if You Modify 1D X or 1D C Firmware
That sounds promising for a potential firmware hack, right? We discussed not too long ago that the Canon 1D X and the Canon 1D C were not exactly the same camera, but that the 1D C had some internal hardware changes -- at the very least a new heatsink, and probably some additions to the firmware to allow 4K recording. At the moment it's still not clear how much the two cameras share in common, but with a quote like above, there is no doubt that the 1D X is probably capable of a lot more internally than the company is allowing at the moment. Whether or not your camera will explode when enabling those features is another consideration entirely, but we're starting to get more details about these internals.

Here is what Canon Rumors had to say about the situation:


We had a chance to peer inside the EOS-1D C (No photos allowed) to find out how much it differed from the EOS-1D X. The differences are minimal, the biggest change is the heat sink inside the camera to keep the sensor circuitry cool during 4K video operation.

The EOS-1D X has some traces of the EOS-1D C firmware code and the features are locked. We don’t know how much of the firmware is the same.

I was told by someone at Canon that they would “bring the might of its legal team” to anyone that attempts to modify at the software level, the features of an EOS-1 camera body. So I think the firmware community out there today will probably leave the EOS-1D X alone.

Obviously that quote is coming from behind the scenes and not from a source we can cite, so while it certainly may have been said, it is tough to say whether that is the company's official stance at the moment (considering they haven't said much publicly about the firmware of their cameras being hacked).

The big reason that people might want to mess with the firmware of the Canon 1D X is because at the moment, that camera only costs $6,800 vs. $12,000 for the 1D C. A $5,000 difference would be a hefty savings for people who wanted the 4K functionality of the 1D C, while still retaining all of the other great features of the 1D X. The other possible changes that could happen in firmware could be related to the HDMI output of the 1D X, which, to my knowledge, cannot be recorded cleanly without cropping (if at all). Another slight difference between the two cameras is a missing headphone port on the 1D X.

Canon is probably trying to save a few dollars on R&D by producing almost the same camera twice for two different markets, but charging much more for the other one (which is a common practice by most companies). We can't say which internal hardware parts are different yet other than the added heatsink, because a proper teardown has not been conducted of both simultaneously. Even if we did find out that they are mostly identical hardware-wise, going by the above information, there could be serious consequences for providing such a hack.

At this time, the folks over at Magic Lantern have not tried to modify the firmware of any of these 1D cameras, so we'll just have to wait and see how this shakes out, and if any other adventurous hackers want to take up the reigns for these specific cameras -- and possibly risk some lawsuits from Canon. We do have to take the company stance with a grain of salt at the moment, but I've never heard anything like that before related to the firmware hacking on their cameras. We'll see if the cease and desist notices start flying if people successfully decode the firmware on the 1D X or 1D C. Magic Lantern actually responded earlier today on twitter:

<twitter link of ML saying they will never touch the 1D series of cameras>


It's also worth mentioning that plenty of other companies are doing what Canon is doing with two separate models and similar hardware. For example, RED's SCARLET and EPIC cameras contain identical hardware inside, but the internal boards on SCARLET, according to RED, are not up-to-spec to handle the increased data rates of EPIC -- though we don't have much choice but to take their word on that as no hacking has been done thus far on RED firmware.

It will be interesting to see how the 1D C sells. Canon knows they aren't going to sell as many as the 1D X, and that's part of the reason for the price difference. I can't help but think that a firmware hack for the 1D X would help sell a ton more cameras and actually be beneficial to the company in the end -- but then again, I can't see their financials, so it's hard to know what they spent on R&D for both and how many cameras they need to sell at a specific price to recoup that.

This is definitely not the end of this story, and we'll keep you updated as more information comes out.

Do you think Canon should allow hacking just as they've always done, or do you believe they have a business to run, so they should be able to make some money in the process and recoup development costs? Would you consider buying a 1D X if the firmware was modified to allow 4K or clean HDMI? Let us know your thoughts in the comments.

Link: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C -- Canon Rumors


1DXII(2) | 5D4 | D850 | 8-800mm

  
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idkdc
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Jul 01, 2017 20:16 |  #442

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18392074 (external link)
I am not talking about YOU. I am talking about ML.

I suspect that even a small team of lawyers could pretty easily get a case in front of a judge simply through obfuscation of how firmware and hardware interact. Throw in enough technical gobbledygook and bam, court date set simply because the judge has no idea wtf is going on.

I suspect that they could make the argument that the firmware upgrade could potentially brick and interfere with user experience not originally intended by the manufacturer. Either way, it looks like ML and Canon have a mutual understanding to leave the 1D series alone. No cease and desist was actually sent, just a message sent through indirect channels. Canon has turned the blind eye based on this condition, which I think is fairly lenient. Enjoy ML on 5D cameras and below, folks.

Also, there's little incentive to hack a 1DXII these days as the feature set has "caught up" with the 1DC. ML was great for hobbyists, but professional filmmakers with deadlines or budgets (set and crew is paid hourly) to meet won't mess with the raw workflow. Battery drain is one of the other downsides too. Really fun to mess with, but not worth saving a couple of dollars and having to pay four in the future.


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ma11rats
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Jul 01, 2017 20:29 |  #443

Anybody interested in the new 6D mark ii?


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Jul 01, 2017 20:31 as a reply to  @ ma11rats's post |  #444

Once upon a time, in a forum far away, there was a thread about said camera.


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Post edited 11 months ago by ma11rats. (4 edits in all)
     
Jul 01, 2017 20:36 |  #445

shaunmcfd wrote in post #18392091 (external link)
Once upon a time, in a forum far away, there was a thread about said camera.

We seemed to get side tracked about the legal ramifications of ML

Anyone see any new videos (posted today) on the camera? Kid's bday party for most of the day kept me away from searching more info. I would like to see more ISO6400 area images or the like.

We know the DPAF/touchscreen work very well. So I'd love for people to share videos they come across where the shooter gets to process the files. So far, everything I've seen is 'beta' camera or 'we're not allowed to put a memory card in', which I understand.

I think we've hammered out enough of the features/lack thereof issues personal feelings. Let's get some links to people using the camera.


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idkdc
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Jul 01, 2017 20:44 |  #446

shaunmcfd wrote in post #18392091 (external link)
Once upon a time, in a forum far away, there was a thread about said camera.


ma11rats wrote in post #18392096 (external link)
We seemed to get side tracked about the legal ramifications of ML

Anyone see any new videos (posted today) on the camera? I would like to see more ISO6400 area images/


This was the original source of discussion on ML:

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18391936 (external link)
I saw that feature too, it's one I have not used on the 5D4 yet,. but have seen some great results from others. The fact that 6D2 can do THAT and is not set up to allow regular 4K video,. I would assume is down to the heat/cost issue.

It will be interesting to see if Magic Lantern will hack the 6D2 to allow full 4K?

Anyone interested in legal arguments can just read the comments made four years ago from the article link instead of rehashing it here. Was just curious if ML can publish for the 6D2, and it looks like Canon's fine with it.


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Charlie
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Jul 01, 2017 20:51 |  #447

idkdc wrote in post #18392082 (external link)
I suspect that they could make the argument that the firmware upgrade could potentially brick and interfere with user experience not originally intended by the manufacturer. Either way, it looks like ML and Canon have a mutual understanding to leave the 1D series alone. No cease and desist was actually sent, just a message sent through indirect channels. Canon has turned the blind eye based on this condition, which I think is fairly lenient. Enjoy ML on 5D cameras and below, folks.

Also, there's little incentive to hack a 1DXII these days as the feature set has "caught up" with the 1DC. ML was great for hobbyists, but professional filmmakers with deadlines or budgets (set and crew is paid hourly) to meet won't mess with the raw workflow. Battery drain is one of the other downsides too. Really fun to mess with, but not worth saving a couple of dollars and having to pay four in the future.

The 1dx had big implications for Canon, word was that 4K could have been unlocked, and Canon absolutely didn't want that to happen.


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x-vision
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Post edited 11 months ago by x-vision. (3 edits in all)
     
Jul 01, 2017 21:39 |  #448

davesrose wrote in post #18392057 (external link)
Most cinema cameras have super35 sized sensors which are actually smaller then the 1Dc's APS-H 4K size. It's not "crippling" a camera: it's a practical reason to stay with professional cinema standards.

Except that the the 1DXII shoots 1080p video in FF and the new Sony A9 shoots 4K in FF.
So, cropping has nothing to do with practicality in this particular case.

Like I said, there is some technical limitation that is preventing Canon to support 4K in FF - in both the 1DXII and 5DIV.
That applies to Nikon too, btw. The D5 also shoots 4K in crop mode only.




  
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idkdc
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Jul 01, 2017 21:45 |  #449

x-vision wrote in post #18392143 (external link)
Except that the the 1DXII shoots 1080p video in FF and the new Sony A9 shoots 4K in FF.
So, cropping has nothing to do with practicality in this particular case.

Like I said, there is some technical limitation that is preventing Canon to support 4K in FF - in both the 1DXII and 5DIV.

I think it's possible, but there is some quality loss with the A7RII when it does it (lower DR, greater noise). I think Canon chose to just disable it as an option because they didn't think their cinema market cared for the tradeoff.


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Post edited 11 months ago by TeamSpeed. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 01, 2017 22:40 |  #450

Talley wrote in post #18391821 (external link)
I pooped today


So did our neighbor's dog, how coincidental... (and this is not a photoshop result, I was testing a Sigma 50-500 OS, I believe and he dropped one during one of the frames. I almost deleted this but then thought that it could have a use from time to time on the boards.) :)


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