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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 28 Jun 2017 (Wednesday) 23:15
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6d2 is here.

 
Charlie
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Jul 02, 2017 02:40 |  #466

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18392264 (external link)
Just like stills on a crop vs FF, you just get a wider and slightly faster lens to get that look and combat the crop video effect.

In practice this can get annoying.
Casual shooting, I may have a simple 50mm. The simple aspect ratio crop already makes me back up for video, a full crop factor would mean that I would need another lens.

elitejp wrote in post #18392280 (external link)
Just my take on the 4k issue. If you are shooting your camera for anywhere from 3-5years before upgrading you want to have some semblance of future proofing. Everything is moving to 4k whether its necessary or not so canon could have included at least some kind of 4k video, even 24p should work for most situations.

As for everything else we really need to wait for user reviews. 45af sounds great but I even 9 points all cross type further spread apart would be better. 1/4000ss? was that really necessary?

However, heres to the 6d2 having really good files to work with.

No doubt that this is currently the best cam for the price. The question is how it'll hold up to Nikon's offerings.


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CyberDyneSystems
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Jul 02, 2017 02:49 |  #467

Dlee13 wrote in post #18392286 (external link)
Page 145 is interesting. Not all lenses can fully utilize all AF points.

...


This is true of all EOS DSLRs with a high end multi point AF system since the 1Dx/5D3 and 7D2.


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elitejp
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Jul 02, 2017 02:50 |  #468

Im more likely to compare it to a used a7r2 and see how they fair (as the prices would be similar)
But even so my 6d does quite well and there isnt really any reason for me to upgrade to an a7r2 or a 6d2


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idkdc
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Jul 02, 2017 03:02 |  #469

x-vision wrote in post #18392259 (external link)
Look, Canon's 1DXII and 5DIV cameras, as well as Sony's A9 camera, shoot 1080p video in full mode.
The A9 shoots 4K in full mode as well - while the 1DXII and 5DIV shoot 4K only in crop mode.

So, if there is a practical advantage to shooting in crop mode, then this advantage applies only to Canon cameras and only for 4K.
I wonder what that special advantage is?? LOL

The reason (some) cinematographers use DSLRs is for the 'unique photographic look'.
Yes, it's a cliche - and yes, the cliche is true, as that's what they are after.

That's the advantage of a FF sensor when it comes to video.
Note that the 'unique photographic look' look is lost when you crop.

Well, if you need more 'reach', then it certainly makes sense to shoot in crop mode.
But that's not the reason why the 1DXII and the 5DIV can only shoot 4K in crop mode.

So you're a cinematographer? Did you read the post I wrote right before yours? I tried to answer your question. I guess a 1.35x crop means the 1DX II loses its je ne sais quoi that these cinematographers are apparently so after.


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idkdc
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Jul 02, 2017 03:10 |  #470

Charlie wrote in post #18392287 (external link)
In practice this can get annoying.
Casual shooting, I may have a simple 50mm. The simple aspect ratio crop already makes me back up for video, a full crop factor would mean that I would need another lens.

No doubt that this is currently the best cam for the price. The question is how it'll hold up to Nikon's offerings.

I wonder when Nikon will take video seriously. Its mount and contrast detect (D7000 video autofocus marketing panned out to be a joke) are kind of its achilles heels. EF mount is used on Panasonic, Black Magic, Canon, Arri, Canon, and compatible with Sony E mount (Nikon gelded lenses are problematic with all but Novoflex adapter ircc). Nikon cameras currently still deal with the same or worse crop factor if I'm not mistaken?


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Dlee13
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Jul 02, 2017 03:11 |  #471

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18392290 (external link)
This is true of all EOS DSLRs with a high end multi point AF system since the 1Dx/5D3 and 7D2.

Oh wow I never knew this. I went from 550D > 6D so this will be the most high end AF I've used. Do other bodies that have this feature support all AF points when using 3Rd party lenses?


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davesrose
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Jul 02, 2017 06:55 |  #472

x-vision wrote in post #18392259 (external link)
Look, Canon's 1DXII and 5DIV cameras, as well as Sony's A9 camera, shoot 1080p video in full mode.
The A9 shoots 4K in full mode as well - while the 1DXII and 5DIV shoot 4K only in crop mode.

So, if there is a practical advantage to shooting in crop mode, then this advantage applies only to Canon cameras and only for 4K.
I wonder what that special advantage is?? LOL

So again you're ignoring my posts citing industry standard cinema cameras having even smaller sensors then Canon HDSLRs' shooting modes. You're only taking a few examples of FF stills cameras that would have to interpolate to a 4K aspect ratio to begin with, and still can't see the reason why dedicated video cameras maintain sensor sizes that reflect native cinema aspect ratios.


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davesrose
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Jul 02, 2017 08:39 |  #473

Dlee13 wrote in post #18392302 (external link)
Oh wow I never knew this. I went from 550D > 6D so this will be the most high end AF I've used. Do other bodies that have this feature support all AF points when using 3Rd party lenses?

Well 3rd party lenses can cover all AF points. The issue with "support" is if they fully utilize cross type AF points. In theory it's a mixed bag. In practice, I think most new lenses have good coverage.

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John ­ Sheehy
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Post edited over 1 year ago by John Sheehy.
     
Jul 02, 2017 08:40 |  #474

x-vision wrote in post #18392259 (external link)
That's the advantage of a FF sensor when it comes to video.
Note that the 'unique photographic look' look is lost when you crop.

That's because your effective DOF gets deeper with the lens at its max aperture. You get it back if you use a wider, faster lens.

Well, if you need more 'reach', then it certainly makes sense to shoot in crop mode.
But that's not the reason why the 1DXII and the 5DIV can only shoot 4K in crop mode.

It requires a lot less bandwidth to have crop mode. If you don't crop, you have to read most of the lines in the sensor every frame and have to resample to the output resolution, but if you crop, you only need to read a smaller fraction of them and don't need to resample. One solution to the bandwidth is line-skipping, but that gives harsh aliasing, and you have to process the entire lines, out of the ones that are read.

If I had to choose between crop mode or line-skipping, I would take the crop, because I abhor aliasing more than I abhor a limit on my FOV with a given collection of lenses.




  
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x-vision
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Post edited over 1 year ago by x-vision.
     
Jul 02, 2017 09:10 |  #475

davesrose wrote in post #18392374 (external link)
So again you're ignoring my posts citing industry standard cinema cameras having even smaller sensors then Canon HDSLRs' shooting modes. You're only taking a few examples of FF stills cameras that would have to interpolate to a 4K aspect ratio to begin with, and still can't see the reason why dedicated video cameras maintain sensor sizes that reflect native cinema aspect ratios.

As pointed out already, the 1DXII shoots 4K in 1.35x crop mode, and the 5DIV shoots 4K in 1.7x crop mode.

Neither one of these is a standard Super-35 format crop mode - which is 1.5x on a FF sensor.
So, clearly, standard compliance is not the reason to have these crop modes (as they are not standard 1.5x).

Again, what is this special practical advantage that:
- applies to the 1DXII and 5DIVI when shooting 4K in non-standard crop modes (1.35x and 1.7x respectively)
- doesn't apply when shooting 1080p, as neither camera crops 1080p footage

Tell us, please, what is this special practical advantage?




  
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x-vision
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Jul 02, 2017 09:22 |  #476

idkdc wrote in post #18392293 (external link)
I guess a 1.35x crop means the 1DX II loses its je ne sais quoi that these cinematographers are apparently so after.

I feel that you are missing the point.

The contention is about the 1DXII and 5DIV supporting 4K only in non-standard crop modes (1.35x and 1.7x respectively) - and whether this is somehow a practical advantage.

That is, when you shoot 4K with these cameras, using a (non-standard) crop factor is somehow an advantage ... until you change the resolution to 1080p, in which case this advantage automatically disappears, as 1080p is shot in 1x mode (no cropping).

So, the question is, what is this practical advantage that comes and goes as you switch between 4K and 1080p.




  
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Jul 02, 2017 09:26 |  #477

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18389489 (external link)
.

Canon's "job" is to get as much of your money as possible, so if you are seriously contemplating a 5D4 instead, because of the disabled features of the new 6D, then it looks like Canon has designed the camera perfectly.

.
.

They aren't going to give away the farm on an entry level FF.


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Jul 02, 2017 09:37 |  #478

I am also quite curious about it. Wouldn't 1080p require even more of a crop then?

x-vision wrote in post #18392436 (external link)

idkdc wrote in post #18392293 (external link)
I guess a 1.35x crop means the 1DX II loses its je ne sais quoi that these cinematographers are apparently so after.

I feel that you are missing the point.

The contention is about the 1DXII and 5DIV supporting 4K only in non-standard crop modes (1.35x and 1.7x respectively) - and whether this is somehow a practical advantage.

That is, when you shoot 4K with these cameras, using a (non-standard) crop factor is somehow an advantage ... until you change the resolution to 1080p, in which case this advantage automatically disappears, as 1080p is shot in 1x mode (no cropping).

So, the question is, what is this practical advantage that comes and goes as you switch between 4K and 1080p.




  
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davesrose
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Jul 02, 2017 09:39 as a reply to  @ x-vision's post |  #479

The answer has been said many times now...even the post right above yours gives an answer. There's no reason a dedicated video camera would have a FF35mm sensor, because native resolutions have different aspect ratios. But no, you insist that these systems are "crippled" because they don't claim to have 35mm FF sensors that have to resample if in FF mode. Instead you insist on having straw man arguments on saying the Sony A9 does 4K FF, or the Canon does HD in FF. Please let us know when the Sony A7 or A9 is used as A-Roll in a major motion picture. And start a crusade with cinematographers, who use the Arri Alexa, RED Epic, Black Magic, Canon C300, Sony F65 etc....


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artsf
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Jul 02, 2017 09:43 |  #480

ebiggs wrote in post #18392437 (external link)
They aren't going to give away the farm on an entry level FF.

Yep, Canon is not going to make the same 'mistake' it did with the original 6d when many prospective 5diii buyers opted for 6d instead and some even switched. 6d offered better overall low light performance due to more sensitive center AF point and slightly better high ISO performance, it also featured bult-in gps and wifi; and was meaningfully smaller and lighter. They've learned: 6dii offers no new features (digic 7 and 4k timelapse are not features) and it is more bare bones compared to 5div.

To be fair, Canon has a breakthrough feature that no one else does (not even close) - DPAF and they are correct to milk it to no end. It is the biggest innovation in photography and videography in recent memory, IMO. While other manufacturers invested in gimmicks, Canon did a very meaninful investment and will benefit greatly from it for years to come transforming the entire field and workflows.




  
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