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Thread started 28 Jun 2017 (Wednesday) 23:15
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6d2 is here.

 
firemanchip
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Jul 09, 2017 03:30 |  #766

Okay so the people that currently own a 6D are finding that the mark II doesnt offer enough to justify an upgrade. What about as a first FF body; Is it worth six hundred dollars more?


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basketballfreak6
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Jul 09, 2017 04:55 |  #767

i think what remains to be seen is how well the new 6D2 files handles being pushed, one thing to get caught up with how many stops less DR the 6D2 is compared to other new canon sensors but if the files comes out nice after pushing shadows then i don't think having "only 11 stops of DR" is really that big of a deal, i mean 11 is still plenty...as long as it doesn't get banding and blotchy (like i can get banding to show on my 5D3 even with just a 2 stop push of shadows it turns nasty real fast) then with all the extras like better AF and articulating screen it's still a worthy upgrade


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russbecker
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Jul 09, 2017 04:56 |  #768

firemanchip wrote in post #18397644 (external link)
Okay so the people that currently own a 6D are finding that the mark II doesnt offer enough to justify an upgrade. What about as a first FF body; Is it worth six hundred dollars more?

If that DR figure holds up, IMO it isn't. You can pick up the current 6D as a refurb from Canon for $1200, $800 less than the 6D2. You can move $800 further up market and pick up a refurb 5D4 from Canon, which does have the DR.

My impression of the 6D is that it is a 40D with a FF sensor (and I still use my 40D). The 6D2 was looking like an 80D with a FF sensor -- and for that factor of 2.5 in light gathering area you should be able to gain at least one f-stop in DR.

I have been very pleased with my 7D2, and the 7D (which is still used) before it. 7D2 is primarily used for birding, but I have also used it quite a bit for landscapes at base ISO. I have been seriously thinking of adding a FF body to make better use of my existing prime lenses, almost picked up a 6D refurb last year. But if this is all the 6D2 can do, I'd more likely pick up a 5D4.


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Dlee13
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Jul 09, 2017 06:11 |  #769

Someone of the FM forums posted this quote they found on the official Canon Facebook page:

"In terms of image quality, the sensor in the EOS 6D Mark II is from the same generation as the EOS 5D Mark IV, rather than EOS 5D Mark III, so the image quality will be similar to the EOS 5D Mark IV. There will be differences in certain shooting conditions but if its better, will probably come down to personal preferences.".


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smythie
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Jul 09, 2017 06:30 |  #770

Having 11 or 12 or 13 or 14+ stops of DR at low sensitivity is one thing for those who push and pull their low ISO files in post a lot. Is that you? Then maybe the mk2 is not worth the extra expense. However it doesn't really mean much to a jpg shooter or someone who doesn't push and pull their low ISO files a lot or someone who is shooting at high ISO a lot. For IQ purposes noise character is more important to these users.

If the other improved specs (AF, screen and others I'm sure I've missed) are more important to you then mk2 might be worth the extra


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gjl711
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Jul 09, 2017 08:42 |  #771

smythie wrote in post #18397691 (external link)
Having 11 or 12 or 13 or 14+ stops of DR at low sensitivity is one thing for those who push and pull their low ISO files in post a lot. Is that you? Then maybe the mk2 is not worth the extra expense. However it doesn't really mean much to a jpg shooter or someone who doesn't push and pull their low ISO files a lot or someone who is shooting at high ISO a lot. For IQ purposes noise character is more important to these users.

If the other improved specs (AF, screen and others I'm sure I've missed) are more important to you then mk2 might be worth the extra

DR is more than just the ability to push the shadows. Any one who shoots landscapes, weddings, images in sun dappled trees, sunrise/sunsets, product photography, architecture and a host of other styles will benefit from a camera with greater DR.


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smythie
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Jul 09, 2017 08:54 |  #772

In those use cases it is pushing the shadows and maybe pulling highlights a touch that is where you use the available DR of the sensor.

I probably frequently use between 9 and 11 stops of DR but to be using more than that I'd need to be taking multiple copies of the same image and performing a HDR process on them. But then I don't shoot 3 or 4 stops underexposed for the fun of it.

However there are many, many users who don't feel the need to heavily massage their images in post production. The minority here who tinker with their images do not represent the majority of users. The types of users you mention in your second sentence shouldn't be using the 6D2. They should already have 5D4, 5DS, 5DSR or 1DX2 cameras for those purposes.


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TeamSpeed
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Jul 09, 2017 09:00 |  #773

The expectation is that the same performance found on the 80d would be found on the newest FF offering from Canon, not a step below.


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AlanU
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Jul 09, 2017 09:22 |  #774

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18397759 (external link)
The expectation is that the same performance found on the 80d would be found on the newest FF offering from Canon, not a step below.

If you look at the 80D and 6dmk2 from the rear lcd area they look virtually identical.

Just yesterday I used my 80D with my 85Lmk2 at a Coffee & Carbs gathering. My analysis is that 1/4000 will be a limitation of the 6dmk2 unless I stop down or use ND filters. Even though I know my aging 5dmk3 can produce better IQ than my 80D I'm still pleased with the IQ I was getting with my 85L and 80D crop sensor with 1/8000 shutter speed capabilities.

I guess I'll need to spend a ballpark of an extra $2000 and step up to a 5dmk4 for dual cards, 1/8000ss and dpaf video capabilities. However in reality I may just settle for another 5dmk3 secondary body as that will suite my needs for stills. So easy to babble about latest gear but in reality lots of the stuff is very capable and we must make do with limitations.


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russbecker
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Jul 09, 2017 09:23 |  #775

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18397759 (external link)
The expectation is that the same performance found on the 80d would be found on the newest FF offering from Canon, not a step below.

Exactly. And given you are collecting 2.5X as many photons, you should expect another f-stop. Simple physics.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 09, 2017 09:31 |  #776

Mark0159 wrote in post #18397558 (external link)
if indeed the sensor for the 6D is based on older tech then this camera is should be off the cards for anyone wanting to upgrade from the 6D.

If you don't get any improvement (like the 5Dmk4 DR range) then what's the point. The sensor is the heart of the camera. a 6mpx isn't enough for an upgrade. There needs to be more.

This news just enforces my view that this camera is old and because of that it's dead on arrival.

This all depends on the history and needs of the buyer. To the person who has no desire to do anything but "get exposure right in the camera" for slide-film-like results, the 6D2 isn't a bad first-FF camera at all. Compared to the original 6D it has a moveable LCD, dual-pixel AF, IBIS for video, f/8 viewfinder AF in multiple points, high-ISO performance similar to the 5D4, and other new features.

To the person hoping for modern base-ISO DR or 1DxII- or D5-like high ISOs, in an inexpensive FF body, it could be a very disappointing release.




  
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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Jul 09, 2017 09:45 |  #777

Doesn't real analysis of DR need to be done in controlled circumstances?

I didn't download the images from FM but it sounds like an incomplete test. If anyone cares to explain it to me in elementary terms, I would appreciate it. Particularly interested in whether the images posted allow proper analysis of high ISO DR and IQ.

If Canon dramatically flattens out the DR curve at high ISO, that could be an important development.

AlanU wrote in post #18397771 (external link)
Just yesterday I used my 80D with my 85Lmk2 at a Coffee & Carbs gathering.

Taking full sun, tiny DOF shots of doughnuts and pastries?


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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 09, 2017 10:00 |  #778

Phoenixkh wrote in post #18397585 (external link)
I'm not smart enough to know how to get that data.... but I have run up over 1/8000 a bunch of times and had to lower the ISO before I could take the shot. I was already at f/8 or f/7.1. But I am often out in bright afternoon sunlight taking bird photos. My wife started using my 70D for birding after hitting the 1/4000 limit with her SL1.

The fastest lens I can think of that people would be using for birds is f/2.8 (300mm or 400mm). How is 1/4000 a problem at f/2.8? Even f/2 should get in just under the wire on any DSLR for white in sunlight at 1/4000. Maybe a high manual ISO is the problem?

That being said, it isn't that difficult to make the adjustments. A click up in f stop.. and a click down in ISO and you're there.

I use AV most of the time. I set the f stop to get the birds in focus and the background blur I want... pretty much only change the ISO to get the shutter speed I need. I let the shutter speed float the rest of the time as long as I keep it above 1/1000 depending on the lens I'm using. This is for hand holding or using my monopod. Things change a bit if I'm using my tripod, but not all that much unless I'm doing a landscape.

I used to do that, but ditched it once auto-ISO became available, except when shooting in bright light like open daylight, in which case I will use a manual "sunny f/16"-type approach (although many DSLRs can handle f/11 in RAW), or Av at ISO 100, where I know the SS variation will be completely in the range of SS overkill. When a certain shutter speed itself is important, I use M mode with auto-ISO. I never look back fondly on the days of Av and fixed ISO in low light. It led to many slow-shutter-speed disasters or blown-out photos. Auto-ISO-M isn't foolproof, because you can set Av and Tv to allow too much exposure for base ISO, but I have had much fewer disasters like that (and a custom function could conceivably allow bending of manual Tv and/or Av settings to prevent over-exposure). I lost many of the best photo-ops of my early years of bird photography because I had the manual ISO in Av mode set for sunlight, and then saw a bird in the deep shade, and by the time I could chimp or notice that I heard a slow shutter (and marginally slow ones are not as audible), it was too late; the bird was gone. One situation burned into my mind was a Scarlet Tanager Male in full color that came down and drank from water on top of a rock at chest level, about 7 feet away from me, and after he flew off, I discovered that my 400mm almost-macro shots were taken at 1/13s and totally destroyed by motion blur. A little bit of extra noise from having the SS too fast with auto-ISO-M is a much smaller disaster, IMO. I just have to be careful to set the SS a little higher and/or use a TC if there is a threat of sunlight in upcoming photo-ops.




  
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AlanU
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Post edited over 1 year ago by AlanU.
     
Jul 09, 2017 10:04 |  #779

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18397782 (external link)
Doesn't real analysis of DR need to be done in controlled circumstances?

I didn't download the images from FM but it sounds like an incomplete test. If anyone cares to explain it to me in elementary terms, I would appreciate it. Particularly interested in whether the images posted allow proper analysis of high ISO DR and IQ.

If Canon dramatically flattens out the DR curve at high ISO, that could be an important development.

Taking full sun, tiny DOF shots of doughnuts and pastries?

Early morning (7am to 10am) car/motorcycle gathering with doughnuts and coffee to go around :)

Sorry I should have said "Carbs and Coffee"


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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 09, 2017 10:41 |  #780

russbecker wrote in post #18397665 (external link)
If that DR figure holds up, IMO it isn't. You can pick up the current 6D as a refurb from Canon for $1200, $800 less than the 6D2. You can move $800 further up market and pick up a refurb 5D4 from Canon, which does have the DR.

My impression of the 6D is that it is a 40D with a FF sensor (and I still use my 40D). The 6D2 was looking like an 80D with a FF sensor -- and for that factor of 2.5 in light gathering area you should be able to gain at least one f-stop in DR.

Base-ISO DR can be more affected by electronics that have nothing to do with light-gathering. When the standard deviation of short-exposure base-ISO blackframe noise is 0.04% to 0.05% of the RAW saturation value (after subtracting black levels), as it is in the 6D2, and all Canons DSLRs except the newer ones with higher base-ISO DR, the light captured plays no role in engineering DR. It plays a role, but still small role in something like Bill Claff's "PDR".

If this post-gain, late stage noise is low enough, then the light-gathering starts to make more of a difference. In general, at higher ISOs, or when there is a lot of pre-gain noise, light gathering makes more of a difference.

Keep in mind that DR is a proxy for the inverse of noise; noise at a certain signal level. It does *not* describe the change in SNR as you go above or below that level. It improves much faster going above that level with greater light gathering. A FF and 1/2.3" sensor could have the same base-ISO DR, but if you look at the full SNR curve for that ISO, they are very different. Same for the same size sensors when post-gain and pre-gain noise vary.




  
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