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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 28 Jun 2017 (Wednesday) 23:15
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6d2 is here.

 
Jotto123
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Aug 10, 2017 19:28 |  #1846

Anyone expecting a price drop around Christmas? If so for how much?

I just cant justify paying 2k on a cam with these specs. I could by a original 6d and the sigma 35 I've been look at for that price!


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TeamSpeed
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Aug 10, 2017 19:42 |  #1847

Phoenixkh wrote in post #18424342 (external link)
I understand both sides of this discussion. I will say this, I felt comfortable buying a 1D IV with 122,000 shutter actuations. I wouldn't have felt the same comfort level had it been a 6D.

I do think build quality matters in the long run, but there are exceptions either way.

Sure, but everyone expects the 1D series to be built better than any of the others. However how would you use a metric such as <$price>/<MTBF rating>? Also that factor means even less in the used market... :)


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Phoenixkh
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Aug 10, 2017 19:51 |  #1848

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18424407 (external link)
Sure, but everyone expects the 1D series to be built better than any of the others. However how would you use a metric such as <$price>/<MTBF rating>? Also that factor means even less in the used market... :)

As I said, I understand your point. There are few absolutes in life. I do think the expected shutter count does affect the prices of used gear, does it not? I mean, I spent $1650 for my 1D IV back in 2015. I know I factored in the MTBF rating when I made the purchase. I used 300k as a baseline and figured, the camera had roughly half its life left, give or take.

I know it's unwise to be dogmatic about this stuff, but I do think most of us use a variety of factors when evaluating used equipment, expected shutter life included. I do think that has to be factored in when buying a new camera as well. I know I plan on buying a 1D X Mark 2. I will be very disappointed if the shutter fails after 50k clicks, though I know it could happen. As "they" say: Life happens(edited for POTN).


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TeamSpeed
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Aug 10, 2017 19:56 |  #1849

Phoenixkh wrote in post #18424422 (external link)
As I said, I understand your point. There are few absolutes in life. I do think the expected shutter count does affect the prices of used gear, does it not? I mean, I spent $1650 for my 1D IV back in 2015. I know I factored in the MTBF rating when I made the purchase. I used 300k as a baseline and figured, the camera had roughly half its life left, give or take.

I know it's unwise to be dogmatic about this stuff, but I do think most of us use a variety of factors when evaluating used equipment, expected shutter life included. I do think that has to be factored in when buying a new camera as well. I know I plan on buying a 1D X Mark 2. I will be very disappointed if the shutter fails after 50k clicks, though I know it could happen. As "they" say: Life happens.

If I knew the 1D was from a sports shooter that shot at 10fps all the time because it was gear provided to him vs a 1D from a hobbyist that took care of it because they paid their own cash for it, and they used it for portraits, etc. then what? So when you take the used ($Asking Price) / (Remaining Actuations), what is the used price you use for the baseline? There isn't one. How useful is the metric when one of the numbers has no real baseline. The metric itself isn't useful.

The % of Remaining Actuations (based on MTBF) can be used as a metric for how much you might pay, but so does condition, how the camera was used, current sold prices, asking prices on boards and Amazon, how much a shutter replacement costs, etc. However the metric of ($Asking Price) / (Remaining Actuations)? What would that mean, and how would you use that for a decision.

I am only arguing for what the virtue of this one metric is, not anything about shutter counts, or what Canon publishes as their mean shutter count before failure. Those in themselves are useful data points.


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greenjeans
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Aug 10, 2017 21:25 |  #1850

But the first thing everyone asks on the sale boards is shutter count.


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gjl711
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Aug 10, 2017 21:27 |  #1851

greenjeans wrote in post #18424533 (external link)
But the first thing everyone asks on the sale boards is shutter count.

It sets the price and gives an indication of usage.


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shaunmcfd
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Aug 10, 2017 21:38 as a reply to  @ greenjeans's post |  #1852

Do you not ask for mileage when buying a used car?


6D | 5D4 | 24-105 f4L | Sigma 50 2.8 Macro | 17-40 f4L| 135 f2L | 70-200 f2.8L ii | Sigma 35 1.4 Art | Canon 24-70 ii

  
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TeamSpeed
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Aug 10, 2017 22:11 |  #1853

shaunmcfd wrote in post #18424541 (external link)
Do you not ask for mileage when buying a used car?

Do you ask "how much is this car going to cost me per mile before the engine goes, or I need a new car?"

No because there is no good answer, and the metric cannot be used to level the playing field across vehicles. Same with cameras, it is a meaningless metric.

Sometimes different factors are good things to know, but taking a ratio of any given two factors gives nothing useful.


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Phoenixkh
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Aug 10, 2017 22:20 |  #1854

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18424436 (external link)
If I knew the 1D was from a sports shooter that shot at 10fps all the time because it was gear provided to him vs a 1D from a hobbyist that took care of it because they paid their own cash for it, and they used it for portraits, etc. then what? So when you take the used ($Asking Price) / (Remaining Actuations), what is the used price you use for the baseline? There isn't one. How useful is the metric when one of the numbers has no real baseline. The metric itself isn't useful.

The % of Remaining Actuations (based on MTBF) can be used as a metric for how much you might pay, but so does condition, how the camera was used, current sold prices, asking prices on boards and Amazon, how much a shutter replacement costs, etc. However the metric of ($Asking Price) / (Remaining Actuations)? What would that mean, and how would you use that for a decision.

I am only arguing for what the virtue of this one metric is, not anything about shutter counts, or what Canon publishes as their mean shutter count before failure. Those in themselves are useful data points.

We agree, I think. I said we use a variety of factors when selecting both new and used equipment. Canon's shutter count ratings are one such factor, at least, to me. And as you suggested, for used equipment, the seller, outward appearance/condition of the equipment, usage, pricing from the major sellers of used equipment, etc. all play a part.


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troehr
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Aug 10, 2017 23:05 |  #1855

gjl711 wrote in post #18424142 (external link)
For the first 20 years of married life I took a similar but more extreme version of this philosophy. I never paid more for a car than an oil change and brake job would cost. It helped that I worked 7 miles from home so breakdown were not that big of a deal but interestingly enough, in 20 years I only had to get towed twice. $500 was my limit and I drove them until they died or needed something fixed that cost more than $100. :)



This was my father's car philosophy his whole life. He would get several years out of most. Much cheaper than new cars. I do the same now with cars and cameras. Buy what I need used, not what I want new.




  
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FuturamaJSP
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Aug 11, 2017 01:34 |  #1856

aezoss wrote in post #18423813 (external link)
Wasn't the 5D2 launched in 2008 at $2699 USD? Exchange plus adjustment for inflation would put it around $3500 CAD today. If you got it for $2600 CAD that was a killer deal.

Canon's Canadian prices went up Apr 2016. There was probably a hike or two between 2008 & 2016.

I recorded body and lens prices before/after the Apr 2016 increase. The lower end items increased nearly 20%. Higher end 6-9%.

T6S - Feb 2016 $789, Apr 2016 $945.84
6D - Feb 2016 $1699, Apr 2016 $1999
7D2 - Feb 2016 $1899, Apr 2016 $2199
5D3 - Feb 2016 $3199, Apr 2016 $3399

Canon's sales & rebates offset the increase for the most part.

It's not just photography. The telescope I purchased for $1899 in 2013 is now $2,699 CAD. March 2016 the same scope peaked at $2899.

Lee

I guess prices were a lot more reasonable back then.
Most of my current gear were purchased while I was still living in Canada until about 2 yrs ago and I just checked photoprice and realized that if i would buy the same lenses that I have now I would have to pay 20-30% more than I did just a few years ago.
I do hope you guys got at least a 25% raise in 2016 :)


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CheshireCat
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Aug 11, 2017 07:39 |  #1857

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18424436 (external link)
I am only arguing for what the virtue of this one metric is, not anything about shutter counts, or what Canon publishes as their mean shutter count before failure. Those in themselves are useful data points.

The metric is actually for shutter failure.
You do not throw the camera in the trash when it happens, just pay a couple hundred bucks to get the shutter fixed.
So much for this nonsense.


1Dx, 5D2 and some lenses

  
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TeamSpeed
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Aug 11, 2017 07:57 |  #1858

CheshireCat wrote in post #18424750 (external link)
The metric is actually for shutter failure.
You do not throw the camera in the trash when it happens, just pay a couple hundred bucks to get the shutter fixed.
So much for this nonsense.

That is a good point too. If someone on this board thinks getting some Price/MTBF Shutter ratio matters, then what happens when a camera with 300K has a shutter replaced? Now what? Chances are other components will go bad yet, not just shutter.

Just because any 2 data values around a product make sense all unto themselves, taking a ratio of those doesn't always make a good statistic to follow.


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Patbil10
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Aug 11, 2017 08:19 |  #1859

troehr wrote in post #18424611 (external link)
This was my father's car philosophy his whole life. He would get several years out of most. Much cheaper than new cars. I do the same now with cars and cameras. Buy what I need used, not what I want new.

Ahhh, I wish I could be like you ! I just can't resist the new car smell and unboxing new camera gear. The other reason I always buy new is that I never trust the previous owners...-?


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mwsilver
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Post edited over 1 year ago by mwsilver. (8 edits in all)
     
Aug 11, 2017 09:16 |  #1860

CheshireCat wrote in post #18424750 (external link)
The metric is actually for shutter failure.
You do not throw the camera in the trash when it happens, just pay a couple hundred bucks to get the shutter fixed.
So much for this nonsense.

MTBF may not a good indicator of how a specific body will perform and shutters can be easily replaced. But I still think it is a useful metric when buying a well used camera if repair is not a desirable future option. But for me, while shutter count is not an accurate indicator of how much longer the shutter will survive it will give some idea of the general wear and tear of the camera. Its the only metric we have to differentiate wear and tear unless the body itself is no longer pristine and shows bumps, bruises and scratches. If you are presented with 3 used cameras for sale which all look and operate identically, but one has 5000 clicks, one 50,000 clicks and the last 100,000 clicks, which one are you most likely to purchase? And wouldn't the choice and the price you are willing to pay for it based at least in part on the MTBF?


Mark
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