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Thread started 17 Aug 2017 (Thursday) 15:56
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Sick of 5D mkIII auto focus issues

 
welshwizard1971
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Aug 19, 2017 02:01 |  #16

bobbyz wrote in post #18431502 (external link)
Can't see the shots and not sure what lens and settings but looks more like case of camera operator rather than the camera. Have 5dmk3 and not many issues. The mirrorless are better for things. I can even get more in focus shots when someone coming at me using my Fuji XT1 compared to my 5dmk3. On sideways, 5dmk3 much better. On single shots, mirrorless are more accurate though slower to AF in general.

Not sure what you're saying here, that you had no issues with a 5D mkIII so it must be my fault, but you then say you did have issues with it, the same issues I had with someone coming towards you, and that you had better performance in those circumstances from an XT-1 that while being praised for it's high IQ was widely considered to be let down by how poor it's AF is, so now you're agreeing it's the camera not me?

If you re read the post you'll see the settings, I wrote them down so maybe that'll help, and I'm happy it's not my fault, I've been doing this for 30 years.


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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welshwizard1971
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Aug 19, 2017 02:13 |  #17

Been doing more thinking, I don't think it's a light issue or a shutter speed issue, I had the same problems last week in the park on a nice sunny day, totally in the open, with a different lens, a 135mm L, so again a great lens, and the shutter speed then was 1/2500 at f4, so it couldn't have been a shutter speed issue, example pic below SOOC, one of the few that came out, again vast majority of shots coming towards me were soft.

Is it that the MkIII doesn't like focusing on objects coming towards it, and now my kid are older and moving faster ( bought them new scooters two weeks ago ) that the issue has now suddenly come to light? I don't do sports or anything so there aren't really any other occasions when I'd be focusing on something coming towards me? So, leaning on your experience really, is the mkiii not that good in these situations, and it's only just coming to light as my kids are older and I've been on leave for two weeks solidly taking photo's of them running around?

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4360/35828520914_5ca00f86d8_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/WA3x​2d  (external link)

5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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bobbyz
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Post edited over 1 year ago by bobbyz. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 19, 2017 02:42 |  #18

What AI servo case? Personally default 1 should work fine. I routinely use center AF point with surrounding 4 assist points and my 5dmk3 works fine (90% plus rate) but I am mainly using 300mm f2.8. Earlier used to use 70-200mmf 2.8. How was your previous camera for something like this? Maybe try another camera if you can borrow one.

Regarding my XT1 comment, it does better. For the scooter shot like you kid, I can shoot 10 shots at f1.4 and get 8 in focus. And that will something like slower 56mm f1.2 lens.


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Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
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welshwizard1971
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Post edited over 1 year ago by welshwizard1971. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 19, 2017 02:48 |  #19

Previous camera was a mkii, no issues, but then I didn't have kids on scooters then, just did landscapes, street, portraits, nothing speedy, so I wouldn't have known if I had an issue or not, I think that's my quandry LOL And, it's default 1, and I've also been using the centre point and 4 surround points....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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welshwizard1971
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Aug 19, 2017 02:52 |  #20

arthurbikemad wrote in post #18431571 (external link)
Settings sure do look good, I see the sun is somewhat behind the subject, I know the best of canon can struggle to focus at times shooting into the sun, not that your image is INTO the sun as such, from what I see it looks like the focus was forwards towards the bars of the scooter, but hard to tell with jpg/compression/iPad, I'd not say the 5D3 was not at fault, but then I'd not say it was bad at tracking subjects coming towards the camera, I've shot a good few dogs and birds with mine as well as other fast moving subjects, no doubt at times you get missed shots and times where the focus system fails to lock on and track, but truly these kind of shots should be a breeze. My wording is not the best sorry, I've taken an interest in the thread as I feel your pain and dissapointment, maybe others can guide you to finding resolve with the issues.


"These kind of shots should be a breeze", exactly, hence my frustration. Somethings amiss, and now that I've checked and eliminated light, shutter speeds, lens and technique, and the fact people think these type of shots shouldn't be an issue, all that's left really is the camera, time for a service then.....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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bobbyz
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Post edited over 1 year ago by bobbyz. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 19, 2017 02:54 |  #21

Here I was using 6d with Sigma 85mm f1.4 @f1.4 in AI servo mode. 50 shots to get one.

IMAGE: http://www.bobbyzphotography.com/img/s/v-2/p1689494674-5.jpg

5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
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welshwizard1971
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Aug 19, 2017 02:56 |  #22

Prob a good idea to be sure, save being without the camera for a few weeks if there's no issue.....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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mystik610
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Post edited over 1 year ago by mystik610. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 19, 2017 08:39 |  #23

There's nothing wrong with your camera. All PDAF systems struggle with subjects that are running towards the camera.

Kids are probably the the most difficult thing to photograph in terms of AF accuracy because:

1. they don't sit still so its taxing on the AF tracking capabilities of the camera
2. since these are portraits, you want accurate focus on the eyes so its taxing on the critical focus capabilities of the camera

DSLR's are better suited for handling the first point....mostly because they are better at maintaining focus while burst firing. This is why DSLR's are a better choice for sports and wildlife. The thing about sports and wildlife photography though, is that there is a greater tolerance for focusing errors because missing the focus on the eyes doesn't ruin a shot like it does for portraiture. DSLR PDAF systems are sort of the machine gun of AF systems....fast and can fire at a high rate, but entirely accurate.

Mirrorless cameras are better for handling the second point, because they are simply more accurate, but most are not so great at maintaining focus between shots. If DSLR's are machine guns, then mirrorless systems are sniper rifles.

Long story short, for a child running towards you, mirrorless AF will be more accurate if you take a single shot, DSLR's can track better while burst firing, though will not be as critically accurate.

That said, newer mirrorless AF systems can track just as well as DSLR's, so you get the best of both worlds. Shot of my son on a swing (fast back and forth movement):

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4272/34523423543_d35254ed80_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/UAHz​3p  (external link) _DSC2625 (external link) by Carlo Alcala (external link), on Flickr

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gjl711
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Aug 19, 2017 08:48 |  #24

You haven't posted one that shows the problem. The picture you did post looked fine and the subject should be easy even for for the oldest Rebel. Sound like you've eliminated all the easy stuff. Could be that one of the AF parameters is not conducive to this shot. Might want to review your settings.This doc (external link) give a lot of good info on the different cases and how to set them up.


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Aug 19, 2017 09:02 |  #25

If it helps at all, my mark III was doing similar things, so I sent it in. Turns out my AF assembly was out of position (their wording). They repaired it and now my images are nice and sharp. Might be something to consider.


Gear: 5DIII; 6D; Canon 16-35 f/4L; Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 VC, Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 VC; Sigma 35mm f/1.4A; Sigma 105mm f/2.8 Macro; Canon 85mm f/1.8; Phottix Mitros+;580exii; Metz AF 50-1

  
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welshwizard1971
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Post edited over 1 year ago by welshwizard1971. (3 edits in all)
     
Aug 19, 2017 12:13 |  #26

gjl711 wrote in post #18431681 (external link)
You haven't posted one that shows the problem. The picture you did post looked fine and the subject should be easy even for for the oldest Rebel. Sound like you've eliminated all the easy stuff. Could be that one of the AF parameters is not conducive to this shot. Might want to review your settings.This doc (external link) give a lot of good info on the different cases and how to set them up.

I have, but it's disappeared as Flickr is wigging out at the moment, hopefully it'll work soon.

Thanks for the link, always good to read that stuff again, always something you forget, but basically the settings are fine, may try another AF mode though ( done, trying 6 )

Ahhh, forgot I could assign the DOF button to be a programmable focus point, now done, that'll help occasionally :)


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
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welshwizard1971
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Aug 19, 2017 12:13 as a reply to  @ dan.k78's post |  #27

Cheers for this, good to know.


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
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Aug 22, 2017 06:01 |  #28

I use AI servo 99% of the time on my 5DIII shooting birds in flight. It can be troublesome to pick the focus but when it's there it's really good! I use a 300/2.8L IS +1.4x most of the time.
The attached photo from thread starter shows both feet are behind and in front of focus area (face) and if not using f:16 it will always be OOF ??
My wife Tone Malm uses a 7DII and a 100-400L IS and getting far better results than me most of the time on small rapid objects!
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SereneSpeed
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Aug 22, 2017 10:36 |  #29

Your example photo shows WAY too slow a shutter speed. Look at the little guy's foot! I photograph my kids playing at 1/640th if I want sharp images. Sorry, but his foot is not "planted". He's running! :-)

That's not out of focus. There is a surprising amount of sharpness on his leading shoulder (considering the shutter speed). That is motion blur.

One thing to consider, at 70mm, f5 isn't a huge DoF for a moving child. Depending on your lens, you could have dropped to f4, or f2.8 and the increase in shutter speed would have yielded you sharper results. I'd bet your keeper rate would have been higher, even with a shallower DoF. And don't be afraid of ISO. That camera (I've had two) is pretty darn clean up to 3200. You just have to be more precise with your exposures.

With a narrower DoF (and suitable shutter speed) your focus accuracy will also be much easier to understand. The hair at the back of the head will be in focus when the eyes aren't, or the leading arm with be in focus not the face, or...

All that being said. It's a camera. You were in low, flat light (not a lot of contrast). Your camera needed to work HARD to track the kid! You need to help it any way you can. Brace your camera, move it smoothly, keep the AF point on one spot of your subject - a spot with as much contrast as is possible.

okay, all the technical (operator) stuff aside. As good as the 5D3 was I found that objects moving toward the camera were the hardest thing for the camera to track at close distances (like yours). I know people who can do it quite well with their 5D3's, but they have altered the case settings. I did not alter mine. For the type of shooting I did, I found Canons base settings to cover me well in most scenarios. But if you want to take photos with your kid running toward you, you will need to adjust the case settings to optimize.

Finally, the 5D3 was a seriously great camera for AF, but there are tricks and nuances that need to be worked with and around. For instance, that 5 point AF cross never worked for me. It seemed to lock on one of the outer points too easily. I always skipped it. I used either a single point or the 9 point square. The 9 point square (for me) tended to work best with subjects moving toward the camera as it seemed to prioritize whatever point was closest to the camera. Just make sure you keep the points on the face and not arms.

Have fun!

EDIT: I forgot. AI Servo all the way! :-)


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illmatik53
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Sep 02, 2017 22:25 |  #30

SereneSpeed wrote in post #18434069 (external link)
Your example photo shows WAY too slow a shutter speed. Look at the little guy's foot! I photograph my kids playing at 1/640th if I want sharp images. Sorry, but his foot is not "planted". He's running! :-)

That's not out of focus. There is a surprising amount of sharpness on his leading shoulder (considering the shutter speed). That is motion blur.

One thing to consider, at 70mm, f5 isn't a huge DoF for a moving child. Depending on your lens, you could have dropped to f4, or f2.8 and the increase in shutter speed would have yielded you sharper results. I'd bet your keeper rate would have been higher, even with a shallower DoF. And don't be afraid of ISO. That camera (I've had two) is pretty darn clean up to 3200. You just have to be more precise with your exposures.

With a narrower DoF (and suitable shutter speed) your focus accuracy will also be much easier to understand. The hair at the back of the head will be in focus when the eyes aren't, or the leading arm with be in focus not the face, or...

All that being said. It's a camera. You were in low, flat light (not a lot of contrast). Your camera needed to work HARD to track the kid! You need to help it any way you can. Brace your camera, move it smoothly, keep the AF point on one spot of your subject - a spot with as much contrast as is possible.

okay, all the technical (operator) stuff aside. As good as the 5D3 was I found that objects moving toward the camera were the hardest thing for the camera to track at close distances (like yours). I know people who can do it quite well with their 5D3's, but they have altered the case settings. I did not alter mine. For the type of shooting I did, I found Canons base settings to cover me well in most scenarios. But if you want to take photos with your kid running toward you, you will need to adjust the case settings to optimize.

Finally, the 5D3 was a seriously great camera for AF, but there are tricks and nuances that need to be worked with and around. For instance, that 5 point AF cross never worked for me. It seemed to lock on one of the outer points too easily. I always skipped it. I used either a single point or the 9 point square. The 9 point square (for me) tended to work best with subjects moving toward the camera as it seemed to prioritize whatever point was closest to the camera. Just make sure you keep the points on the face and not arms.

Have fun!

EDIT: I forgot. AI Servo all the way! :-)

I agree here. I have a 5D3 and I use a single focus point, which allows me to keep my focus on my target. If you choose the face and keep it there during the AI servo shot, you ought to notice that the face stays in focus almost the entire time. When you do multiples, as mentioned before, the focus tends to jump around. The camera can't predict exactly what you are expecting to have in focus. Limiting the AI's options by narrowing down the number of focus points to choose from, I believe, will yield much greater results.


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Sick of 5D mkIII auto focus issues
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