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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 14 Sep 2017 (Thursday) 20:07
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Alleged Leak - Profoto new product

 
mdvaden
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Sep 24, 2017 13:51 |  #46

airbutchie wrote in post #18457881 (external link)
So I have a friend who's a "Profoto Ambassador" ... Flew him out to Sweden to test/try/use the new A1 ... After the demonstration, he and the other ambassadors were given A1's for free ... Schweet-Jesus!!! Hehehehe... I'll be meeting up with him next week to demo this new Profoto product and see what the hoopla is all about... With that said, during our brief online discussion, here's what he had to say during his initial use:

- Profoto quality and build
- Loves the LED modeling light
- Better light quality than any other speed lights he's used
- Light fall off better/softer on round strobe/flash head than rectangle
- Likes the magnetic mountable (and stackable) accessories/modifiers
- Built-in Air Remote TTL

I'll bring my Canon 580EXII and compare it to the A1... He mentioned the 'better light fall off' because of the circular shaped strobe/flash head, rather than that of a rectangular shaped strobe/flash (i.e. Canon/Nikon flashes) which basically only covers the camera's frame... I guess I'll see it when I test try it... Like I mentioned on my previous post, if you're already invested in Profoto strobes and gear, this would be a great add-on to your inventory... If not, then this could be an expensive entry into the Profoto family... Anyhoo... I'll do my best to add to this discussion after giving it a test try... Stay tuned!!!

:)

My thoughts ... the quality is probably darn good.

But I bet if we gave several pros a name brand speedlite and the new A1 and told them to go shoot, bet there's good chance Profoto ambassadors or their execs may get mixed-up in a "wine tasting" style print comparison if their finished photo samples were spread out. Even if the light was "better" I suspect it's minimal. In the promo video, the photographer claims the light will change his shooting forever ... okay ... let's see how long that eternity holds true.


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mmmfotografie
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Sep 24, 2017 14:49 |  #47

More important is to make pictures and not keep polishing your equipment... photographic equipment..... ;-)a




  
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simonbarker
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Sep 26, 2017 20:56 |  #48

Alveric wrote in post #18457154 (external link)
And that's the nail in the coffin. Definitely not buying it.

Isn't everything Profoto makes made in China?

Alveric wrote in post #18457154 (external link)
I'd gladly pay $ 1K or more for a quality unit, but the A1 is not it.

So what about the A1 is poor quality?




  
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fotopaul
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Post edited over 1 year ago by fotopaul.
     
Sep 27, 2017 09:54 |  #49

MayaTlab wrote in post #18458879 (external link)
There's one measurable metric for example where it's pretty certain that the A1 will smoke other speedlites, and it's flash WB consistency across the power range. The tolerances are in the spec list and they're similar to the B1 and B2, which are conservative in the first place.

LIke any TTL unit it will suffer from color shifts due to the flash curve being cut off. The Profoto B2 is the perfect example of this issue.

Hope fully the A1 will fare better, it's still a speedlight though.


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MayaTlab. (2 edits in all)
     
Sep 27, 2017 11:22 |  #50

fotopaul wrote in post #18461399 (external link)
LIke any TTL unit it will suffer from color shifts due to the flash curve being cut off. The Profoto B2 is the perfect example of this issue.

Hope fully the A1 will fare better, it's still a speedlight though.

Could you be more explicit please about what you mean by "colour shifts" ?

Because it might not be perfect, but so far my B2 packs are far better in terms of WB consistency than any voltage controlled flash or speedlite I've used (with the A6 firmware - some B2 units experienced a WB consistency bug with previous firmwares, others were fine). My findings are on page 3 of this thread.

The B1, for example, has been independently measured as having better WB consistency across the power range than a Broncolor Move, a Siros, or an Einstein.




  
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Angmo
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Sep 27, 2017 11:53 |  #51

MayaTlab wrote in post #18461456 (external link)
Could you be more explicit please about what you mean by "colour shifts" ?

Because it might not be perfect, but so far my B2 packs are far better in terms of WB consistency than any voltage controlled flash or speedlite I've used (with the A6 firmware - some B2 units experienced a WB consistency bug with previous firmwares, others were fine). My findings are on page 3 of this thread.

The B1, for example, has been independently measured as having better WB consistency across the power range than a Broncolor Move, a Siros, or an Einstein.

Sidebar question. How many degrees kelvin does the shift become visible or noticeable by the human eye..?


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MayaTlab. (4 edits in all)
     
Sep 27, 2017 12:34 as a reply to  @ Angmo's post |  #52

That's a very good question, to which I don't have a great answer.

That being said, I know that I can easily notice on a grey wall a 150k or so (and a bit of green / magenta tint) difference between three LED fresnels (I bought a kit a few years ago and instantly noticed the difference). But that's in a comparative situation. Anyone of us can easily notice how good the brain is at adapting to white point changes. And once multiple lights setups are in place, on variously coloured objects, all bets are off I guess.

In addition, modifiers also alter WB, as well as optical brighteners, environment (walls for example), etc.

Personally, the B2's colour consistency doesn't fall into the "absolute need" category, but rather in the "saves time and makes things easier" one. I can for example change the aperture, change the power by a corresponding amount, and I won't need another grey card picture. Basically, the B2 allows me to not bother about WB problems from the flash. It saves valuable brain power for other problems (including WB problems related to room / object reflections, or my favourite ennemies : optical brighteners). When I encounter a WB issue (not that often anyway) I can reasonably satisfyingly rule out the flash as the cause and turn my attention to other more probable hypothesis.

Going back to the A1, I hope that not only will it be on par with the B1 or B2 in terms of WB consistency, I also hope that it will be on par in terms of absolute WB value, to easily mix them with other Profoto strobes.




  
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fotopaul
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Sep 27, 2017 14:47 |  #53

MayaTlab wrote in post #18461456 (external link)
Could you be more explicit please about what you mean by "colour shifts" ?

Because it might not be perfect, but so far my B2 packs are far better in terms of WB consistency than any voltage controlled flash or speedlite I've used (with the A6 firmware - some B2 units experienced a WB consistency bug with previous firmwares, others were fine). My findings are on page 3 of this thread.

The B1, for example, has been independently measured as having better WB consistency across the power range than a Broncolor Move, a Siros, or an Einstein.

First off strobes/flashes doesn't have WB issues, they can shift in color temprature, WB issues is related to cameras etc.

The B2 in TTL where the flash doesn't dump the power, but cut the curve will give a shift quite dramatically, you can read up on flash curvature and color if you'r not familiar with it.

The B1 is better in this regard, i haven't measured the B1 compared to the bron so can neither deny or confirm. But TTL is not for color accuracy or consistency.

Now depending on how and what you shoot this can be more or less of an issue.

Personally i find the B2 form factor good, but it's not powerful enough, TTL is as useable as a door stop which renders it quit teeth less against the competition. B1 more power, but all but optimal design for location shooting.


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Post edited over 1 year ago by fotopaul.
     
Sep 27, 2017 14:48 |  #54

Angmo wrote in post #18461489 (external link)
Sidebar question. How many degrees kelvin does the shift become visible or noticeable by the human eye..?

With the B2 on a event demo the images got bluer and bluer, very visible. But again depending on the application and use this may be more or less of an issue.


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MayaTlab. (2 edits in all)
     
Sep 27, 2017 15:37 |  #55

fotopaul wrote in post #18461624 (external link)
First off strobes/flashes doesn't have WB issues, they can shift in color temprature, WB issues is related to cameras etc.

The B2 in TTL where the flash doesn't dump the power, but cut the curve will give a shift quite dramatically, you can read up on flash curvature and color if you'r not familiar with it.

The B1 is better in this regard, i haven't measured the B1 compared to the bron so can neither deny or confirm. But TTL is not for color accuracy or consistency.

Broncolor's strobes or Einstein don't just cut the curve, they also alter the voltage, i.e. a mixed approach, to get colour consistent results. I don't know how Profoto does it, but what I can tell you, you know, because I've actually kind of used the product and made some attempt at measuring its colour consistency (and was the first one to report the colour consistency bug to Profoto France), is that, just as a wrote on page 3, there is around 0-50k difference between 1Ws and 250Ws, 0K difference shot to shot at max power, and maybe around 100k spread shot to shot at min power, and all that whether the light is in TTL or manual (it makes strictly ZERO - I repeat : ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, RIEN, NUL - difference to the colour temperature).

I have the feeling that you've never really actually evaluated the B2's colour consistency, haven't you ?

With the B2 on a event demo the images got bluer and bluer, very visible. But again depending on the application and use this may be more or less of an issue.

Two explications for that :
1) it could have been one of the packs affected by the colour consistency bug. Firmware A6 fixed it.
2) More likely : it simply was set to freeze mode, which disregards colour consistency for increased flash speed at lower power output values.




  
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fotopaul
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Post edited over 1 year ago by fotopaul.
     
Sep 27, 2017 15:49 |  #56

MayaTlab wrote in post #18461670 (external link)
Broncolor's strobes or Einstein don't just cut the curve, they also alter the voltage, i.e. a mixed approach, to get colour consistent results. I don't know how Profoto does it, but what I can tell you, you know, because I've actually kind of used the product and made some attempt at measuring its colour consistency (and was the first one to report the colour consistency bug to Profoto France), is that, just as a wrote on page 3, there is around 0-50k difference between 1Ws and 250Ws, 0K difference shot to shot at max power, and maybe around 100k spread shot to shot at min power, and all that whether the light is in TTL or manual (it makes strictly ZERO - I repeat : ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, RIEN, NUL - difference to the colour temperature).

I have the feeling that you've never really actually evaluated the B2's colour consistency, haven't you ? So I suggest that you stop talking out of your bottom on that issue.

Two explications for that :
1) it could have been one of the packs affected by the colour consistency bug. Firmware A6 fixed it.
2) More likely : it simply was set to freeze mode, which disregards colour consistency for increased flash speed at lower power output values.

It's quite clear that you lack the basic understanding on how TTL is implemented and how a flash curve looks like.

You have a feeling.. :-) Well alright then.

Yeah im sure Profoto Sweden would demo a faulty unit on stage with one of their ambassadors. You do realise i live in Sweden, the HQ for Profoto as well knowing a few ambassadors.


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MayaTlab
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Sep 27, 2017 15:54 |  #57

fotopaul wrote in post #18461677 (external link)
You have a feeling.. :-) Well alright then.

I think you mean that I actually have a B2, unlike you, I have raw files, unlike you, and I have reasonably correct measurements, unlike you.




  
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Post edited over 1 year ago by fotopaul. (2 edits in all)
     
Sep 27, 2017 15:59 |  #58

MayaTlab wrote in post #18461682 (external link)
I think you mean that I actually have a B2, unlike you, I have raw files, unlike you, and I have reasonably correct measurements, unlike you.

Yeah im sure a C-700 is not precise enough for you, but don't worry ill might entertain you and get hold of the B2 and show you how a cut flash curve looks like. :-)


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 1 year ago by MayaTlab. (3 edits in all)
     
Sep 27, 2017 16:02 |  #59

fotopaul wrote in post #18461687 (external link)
Yeah im sure a C-700 is not precise enough for you, but don't worry ill might entertain you and get hold of the B2 and show you how a cut flash curve looks like. :-)

Since your familiarity with the unit is next to zero, let me remind you to switch the pack to "normal" mode when you do this. Oh, and of course update the firmware. And switch the non proportional modelling light off.




  
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fotopaul
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Sep 28, 2017 04:08 as a reply to  @ MayaTlab's post |  #60

:lol: Yeah ill make sure the technological wonders of the B2 doesn¢t overwhelm me...;-)a

Itɢs been set in motion, we will get a B2 and B1 and test them both with the C-700, will also test HS and hss against each other. Will post link once it’s up. :-)


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Alleged Leak - Profoto new product
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