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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 03 Oct 2017 (Tuesday) 20:41
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Uprgade the camera or the lens??

 
Houston1852
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Oct 03, 2017 20:41 |  #1

Hi, I am a hobbyist photographer, so I've never made much money off of this, but I do try to have the best equipment I can afford. I currently shoot a 7D2 for wildlife and everything else I use a 5D2 I've had about 5 years. I do alot of landscapes so I usually have a 16-24 2.8 on camera. I also have a 24-70 2.8. Now here is my dilemma... we recently had our 1st child and I know I'll be taking billions of photos of this little bundle of joy over the years. I had been thinking of getting the 70-200ii 2.8 because I have always heard such good things about it as a portrait lens. My 100-400ii is probably my sharpest lens so I tend to use that when I do planned portrait pics of my daughter. Like I said it's sharp, BUT it's 5.6 AND it's 100-400. My other thought is maybe just make do with the lenses I have and upgrade the 5D2 to a 5D3. I don't like the autofocus on the 5D2 so that would be an improvement and I'm sure the 5D3 has to have better high iso capabilities. So maybe raising the iso would make up for not having the 2.8 of the 70-200?? I guess I just can't decide which would be the better option since they're both around $2,000. I'm kind of leaning towards a 5D3 then maybe a year or so down the road adding the lens. I just don't know though!




  
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MalVeauX
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Oct 03, 2017 21:03 |  #2

Houston1852 wrote in post #18465568 (external link)
Hi, I am a hobbyist photographer, so I've never made much money off of this, but I do try to have the best equipment I can afford. I currently shoot a 7D2 for wildlife and everything else I use a 5D2 I've had about 5 years. I do alot of landscapes so I usually have a 16-24 2.8 on camera. I also have a 24-70 2.8. Now here is my dilemma... we recently had our 1st child and I know I'll be taking billions of photos of this little bundle of joy over the years. I had been thinking of getting the 70-200ii 2.8 because I have always heard such good things about it as a portrait lens. My 100-400ii is probably my sharpest lens so I tend to use that when I do planned portrait pics of my daughter. Like I said it's sharp, BUT it's 5.6 AND it's 100-400. My other thought is maybe just make do with the lenses I have and upgrade the 5D2 to a 5D3. I don't like the autofocus on the 5D2 so that would be an improvement and I'm sure the 5D3 has to have better high iso capabilities. So maybe raising the iso would make up for not having the 2.8 of the 70-200?? I guess I just can't decide which would be the better option since they're both around $2,000. I'm kind of leaning towards a 5D3 then maybe a year or so down the road adding the lens. I just don't know though!

Ditch the 5D2 while you can.

You don't need a 70-200 for a newborn. You won't need a 70-200 for many years to come. You'll find you spend a lot more time in very close proximity to the child, outside of formal portraits. They don't walk much at first. And they don't tend to like being out in the cold or being left alone much at first either. So you have a good year or two before you even will be thinking about a telephoto, outside of a formal portrait with a parent or other adult holding the child.

Your 24-70 is good to go. The 16-24 (or whatever that is?) is also a good lens for this.

More importantly, if you don't already have a flash, get a good TTL flash. Flash is way better, way more useful, and will do more, than simply having F2.8 (which is SLOW indoors in low light). Even F1.4 is slow indoors in low light. Houses are really dark. Flash however brings the light. Well placed bounced flash does the job way better than trying to munch through bad house lighting (especially awful bulbs, tungsten light, etc which is awful), than trying to shoot at fast focal-ratio and really high ISO. It will still look meh, compared to a well lit flash bounce which will look way better.

And if you really want to buy something, go to the 5D3. You'll appreciate the AF points beyond the center point, which is a total overhaul compared to what you're used to with the 5D2.

5D3 + Flash. And wait.

Very best,


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kmilo
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Oct 03, 2017 21:11 |  #3

MalVeauX wrote in post #18465578 (external link)
Ditch the 5D2 while you can.

You don't need a 70-200 for a newborn. You won't need a 70-200 for many years to come. You'll find you spend a lot more time in very close proximity to the child, outside of formal portraits. They don't walk much at first. And they don't tend to like being out in the cold or being left alone much at first either. So you have a good year or two before you even will be thinking about a telephoto, outside of a formal portrait with a parent or other adult holding the child.

Your 24-70 is good to go. The 16-24 (or whatever that is?) is also a good lens for this.

More importantly, if you don't already have a flash, get a good TTL flash. Flash is way better, way more useful, and will do more, than simply having F2.8 (which is SLOW indoors in low light). Even F1.4 is slow indoors in low light. Houses are really dark. Flash however brings the light. Well placed bounced flash does the job way better than trying to munch through bad house lighting (especially awful bulbs, tungsten light, etc which is awful), than trying to shoot at fast focal-ratio and really high ISO. It will still look meh, compared to a well lit flash bounce which will look way better.

And if you really want to buy something, go to the 5D3. You'll appreciate the AF points beyond the center point, which is a total overhaul compared to what you're used to with the 5D2.

5D3 + Flash. And wait.

Very best,


What he said. I 100% agree.


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Bassat
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Oct 03, 2017 21:15 |  #4

kmilo wrote in post #18465581 (external link)
What he said. I 100% agree.

That makes 3 of us.


Tom

  
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FarmerTed1971
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Oct 03, 2017 21:16 |  #5

3rd'd

Edit: 4th'd


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Charlie
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Oct 04, 2017 13:47 |  #6

none of the above, I'de simply get a flash if you didnt have one already.

70-200..... you wont need one for years, let the prices drop.

fast AF, you wont need that for at least a year, body prices will continue to drop.

high ISO improvement of the 5D3 is not that big compared to the 5D2, and a year + down the line, the 5Div would probably be within striking distance.


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Houston1852
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Oct 05, 2017 12:10 |  #7

Thank you all for your input, I really appreciate it! I do have a 430 ex2 flash but I can't quite get a grasp on it. I tend to eventually get the results I'm looking for but it takes a bit of trial and error. I never really know what output to use. I don't get why if I lower the flash output the little distance number goes up! To me it seems like it should be the opposite. Just an example if I have the flash at maybe +1 it might give me an effective range of 2m. If I lower the output to maybe -1 it would show the effective range at 9m. These numbers are just examples of what I'm seeing, I'm at work so can't give actual numbers. I just don't get why lowering flash output raises effective distance and the opposite on raising flash output? Also do I need a flash meter to rule out so much trial and error? Is there a good book on the subject without getting too into strobes and all that other gear?
Right now I'm thinking 5D3 but I'll look more at the 5D4, I just don't see it being below $2500 in the next 2yrs.
Thanks again

My wide angle lens is actually a 16-35 2.8




  
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Charlie
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Oct 05, 2017 13:24 |  #8

Houston1852 wrote in post #18466593 (external link)
Thank you all for your input, I really appreciate it! I do have a 430 ex2 flash but I can't quite get a grasp on it. I tend to eventually get the results I'm looking for but it takes a bit of trial and error. I never really know what output to use. I don't get why if I lower the flash output the little distance number goes up! To me it seems like it should be the opposite. Just an example if I have the flash at maybe +1 it might give me an effective range of 2m. If I lower the output to maybe -1 it would show the effective range at 9m. These numbers are just examples of what I'm seeing, I'm at work so can't give actual numbers. I just don't get why lowering flash output raises effective distance and the opposite on raising flash output? Also do I need a flash meter to rule out so much trial and error? Is there a good book on the subject without getting too into strobes and all that other gear?
Right now I'm thinking 5D3 but I'll look more at the 5D4, I just don't see it being below $2500 in the next 2yrs.
Thanks again

My wide angle lens is actually a 16-35 2.8

set the flash to ETTL, it should be brain dead easy.

ETTL = automatic.

If you're using f2.8 or faster lenses, generally, ISO AUTO + flash will work fine, just shoot in TV mode and set your shutter speed.

point flash to the ceiling and pull out the flash card.

of course this is very rough condensed course on flash, there are a million tutorials on flash on YT, gavin hoey and mark wallace are great for noobie tutorials on the subject of flash.

When you start getting modifiers and triggers, the complexity can go up a lot. Flash meter is nice, I use it sometimes, but you've got a single ETTL flash, it's not like you have 2-3 lights you need to adjust quickly, you can skip the meter for now. If you want to get into the flash game, I suggest you head into the flash forum, you'll get tons of info there, especially since you only have one flash.


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kf095
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Post edited 10 months ago by kf095. (2 edits in all)
     
Oct 05, 2017 22:55 |  #9

For newborn I purchased 100L. Because of focal distance, close focus distance and no need for flash due to IS (we have child not comfortable for first few months with flash). Child turned one and I sold 100L and switched to 50L. It was great as portrait lens, until it broke.
I still have 70-200L and use it rarely. It is great portrait lens, but 24-70 is better, IMO. Or even 24-105L. Our first daughter is using only this lens for portraits. But kids are 21+ :-).

To me easiest and most interesting child photography is taken close and with child in focus, not one eye only in focus. 28 to 70mm, F5.6, F8 and clean ISO6400 is great combo for this, IMO.


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Ah-keong
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Oct 06, 2017 01:28 |  #10

I would add a 100L Macro.

70-200mm for grown kids....


Canon 7D Mark II | BG-E16 | Canon EF-S 10-18mm | Sigma DC 18-35mm ART | Canon EF 70-200mm f/2,8L IS II | Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/100mm ZE | Zeiss Distagon T* 2/35mm ZE
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MalVeauX
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Post edited 10 months ago by MalVeauX.
     
Oct 06, 2017 05:07 |  #11

Houston1852 wrote in post #18466593 (external link)
Thank you all for your input, I really appreciate it! I do have a 430 ex2 flash but I can't quite get a grasp on it. I tend to eventually get the results I'm looking for but it takes a bit of trial and error. I never really know what output to use. I don't get why if I lower the flash output the little distance number goes up! To me it seems like it should be the opposite. Just an example if I have the flash at maybe +1 it might give me an effective range of 2m. If I lower the output to maybe -1 it would show the effective range at 9m. These numbers are just examples of what I'm seeing, I'm at work so can't give actual numbers. I just don't get why lowering flash output raises effective distance and the opposite on raising flash output? Also do I need a flash meter to rule out so much trial and error? Is there a good book on the subject without getting too into strobes and all that other gear?
Right now I'm thinking 5D3 but I'll look more at the 5D4, I just don't see it being below $2500 in the next 2yrs.
Thanks again

My wide angle lens is actually a 16-35 2.8

You already have the tools, so just practice with your flash. You don't have to set it manually. Use ETTL. Then simply adjust FEC +/- based on if you want it to be fill or key light. Using it as a bounce source (point it at the ceiling, wall, etc) gives you a huge boost of soft diffuse nice light indoors. But be attentive to where you point it, the angle, as that's where the light source will become and spread out, and bounce around (as in, don't point it behind them if you're trying to light up their eyes). Just be mindful of where you're pointing your flash. It's a total different experience to shoot ETTL bounce flash indoors compared to just manually adjusting power and pointing it at someone's face, just practice with it. Let the technology work for you.

Slap that 24-70 or 16-35 on your 5D with the flash on there and get to it.

Flash allows you to not care much about ISO performance on your camera, your camera is plenty modern enough for this. You really don't even need a new body. A 5D3 would be nice, because you can actually AF with the outer points and they're accurate. But you may not even need that. Frankly, in a dark house, a 6D would have better center point AF than even the 5D3. The 5DIV is better of course, but at 3x the cost (not worth it in my opinion for this).

There's a huge difference between doing formal studio or outdoor portrait sessions, and being a parent and just making nice photos of your children day to day and having fun. You'll get a ton more out of having lighting than you will just spending thousands on a camera body. And your lenses are great for all of this.

Final tip: get on the ground, get below their eye level, it changes everything. This is why the 16-35 is so useful.

++++++++++++

You don't need a $1000 lens, or a $2500~3500 camera.

The cheap 85mm F1.8 prime is excellent. I don't get all the fuss about CA and all that.

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Very best,

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Oct 06, 2017 05:37 |  #12

Agree that a prime would be a nice addition. 100L IS macro is nice. But so is the 135L and there is a new Canon 85L IS out now too, any of those would expand your horizons. People like to complain about the 85 1.8 but I have foundit to be a workhorse and one of my most used lenses. Plus, it is only 250-350 bucks depending on if you buy new or used.

I'm not sure the 5DIII is going to be a huge improvement in image quality. It would certainly be a nice upgrade with combination IQ and focusing. In my experience, once your little one is up and moving you will be outside a lot. The additional light should allow you to move back to the 7DII and use its great focusing system.

Forget about the numbers on the back of the flash. Simply know that 1/1 is full power, 1/2 is half ... and on and on. Bounce is the way to go, I often zoom the flash head in to 85 or 105 to give the light more directionality. This also helps show the effect of aiming the flash in different areas of the room.

Give your flash a little work with your current set up and see what you can come up with. The flash forum here is very helpful, show us some examples and we're glad to help out.

Congrats on the new addition.


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djh5331
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Oct 06, 2017 07:45 |  #13

I agree with others on this...flash is probably your best bet. If you're having issues with it, you could always buy a cheap wireless trigger set from Amazon, setup the flash in the corner of the room aimed at the ceiling, and then dial in your camera settings with a few test shots. That should give you the same lighting in each shot while you're in that room, which should help you if you're having consistency issues with flash. If you use this method, you'll want to manually set your flash power.

In terms of flash power, I like to use a binary search type of method when trying to dial it in. 1 = full power, 1/2 = half power, etc. The 430 EX II goes from 1 to 1/64 power so if I start midway at 1/8 power, and it's too bright, then I'll dial back to 1/32. If it's too dark, then I'll jump to 1/2 power and will keep making adjustments until I get it where I want it. If you keep the flash in one spot then it should make power adjustments pretty easy.

If you're looking for books, the "Speedliter's Handbook" is pretty decent and is geared specifically for Canon speedlights. It's definitely worth checking out if you're struggling.

Flash can be pretty daunting at first, especially off camera flash, but if you can get a grasp on it it'll make a huge difference especially in tough lighting. Of course, nothing beats trial and error! Best of luck!




  
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Ah-keong
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Oct 09, 2017 02:38 |  #14

I would say the scale of the importance of upgrade is

1) Photographer (More books, more practice , more creativity, etc)

2) Light (Natural light, Flash, strobe, etc

3) Glass

4) Camera Body

 :p


Canon 7D Mark II | BG-E16 | Canon EF-S 10-18mm | Sigma DC 18-35mm ART | Canon EF 70-200mm f/2,8L IS II | Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/100mm ZE | Zeiss Distagon T* 2/35mm ZE
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medd63
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Oct 13, 2017 08:05 |  #15

3.5) Post processing skills


6D, 7D2, T4i, 16-35mm f/4L IS, 100mm Macro f/2.8L IS, 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS, 50mm f/1.4 IS, EF-S 55-250, 1.4 II TC, Kenko Extension Tubes, MeFoto Globetrotter & Roadtrip Tripods, Lightroom CC, Photoshop CC

  
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Uprgade the camera or the lens??
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