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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Glamour & Nude Talk 
Thread started 19 Oct 2017 (Thursday) 01:40
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If a model changes her mind ...

 
inwardphoto
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Oct 28, 2017 16:35 as a reply to  @ post 18482979 |  #31

Means I have to be careful and make sure all my T are crossed and Is are dotted.

Paper work is always important, but for financial reasons as well as legal and sometimes they are the same.




  
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George ­ Zip
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Oct 28, 2017 19:35 |  #32

charlemagne wrote in post #18475809 (external link)
I have a model I worked with two times, and that resulted in some superb images.
Yesterday she let me know that she will not do nudes anymore and she also asked if I would refrain from using her pictures any longer.
I have a model release contract from the second shoot, not for the first one.
I have been shooting models for about five years now, her first shoot was one of my first cooperations, hence 'no contract' for the first shoot (I got smarter during the process) and she posed topless spontaneously and with no regrets after the shoot. She was very enthusiast about the result, but suffered a severe accident shortly after. 2 years later she had recovered 95% and we planned a second shoot, to her great pleasure. She was very enthusiast about the results again, she came posing in front of the images together with me when I had an exhibit etcetera.
Things have changed recently. She is a gym teacher in a catholic school and has gotten fearful about someone recognising her on the images. She talks about rumours in this sense. Also, she started doing commercial work, I'm not sure that this is linked, but it appears to be a sensitive thing here in Belgium to pose for fashion/commercial work if you also pose nude.(she's in her mid 30's and looking extremely good, she will probably be cast as a young and fashionable mother.
I have been doing this work just because we live in a world that too much condemns nudity and I feel we need to give beautiful nudes a place in art in particular and in society in general, to counterbalance brute porn on one hand or denial and censorship on the other hand.

I have been protecting my models to my best abilities, I let them choose a different name for publishing pictures, I never link to any of their social media profiles, I submit my selection of images for a second round of approval/refusal before publishing any picture, which most of the times works excellent, I have (after about 55 shoots) no complaints yet except this one. I believe my work is beautiful and deserves to be seen.
If I remove the images, I think I loose.
If I don't remove the images, she will blame me for any consequences, I loose.

I do not want to argue with models, but I feel very bad about it in every way.

thanks for reading all the way down, let me hear your ideas.
Ludwig

I'm going to put my business hat on here. That does not mean an excuse for bad behavior.

Legally I guess you are on thin ice with the first shoot and ok legally with the second shoot. Even then contract or no contract things can get messy in any business. She would have to prosecute and if she is concerned about being identified she would not do that.

But I sense that is not really the issue for you. You want to do the right thing.

I would consider a compromise. Maybe tell her you will take them offline but will retain the images for exhibitions or something like that. Whatever is applicable in your situation. I think that "laying down" on the issue would be a bad move. Don't forget people talk and if you have that reputation for giving in it might bite you down the track. I can not tell you the amount of times I have done the right thing to be bitten later. But at the same time it probarbly has been good overall. You need to win the war I guess not just the battle. However I would try and come up with a compromise so it leaves the door open down the track should things change again.

Doing the right thing is hard. Being a prick is easy.

Good luck.




  
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charlemagne
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Oct 31, 2017 12:12 |  #33

I have agreed with the model that I can continue using the pictures for exhibits and book publishing, but that I would refrein from using them on my website/blog/facebook/​printed invitations/fora ...
A good deal both for me and for her, and our relationship standing all right.

I'v also thrown in the suggestion to change jobs, she has been thinking about it but is not willing to take the plunge yet.

thanks for all your idea's and thoughts, it has helped me out 'doing the good thing' but at the same time not giving in too easily.

:love:


ludwig
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Pinto
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Nov 24, 2017 10:28 |  #34

charlemagne wrote in post #18485510 (external link)
I have agreed with the model that I can continue using the pictures for exhibits and book publishing, but that I would refrein from using them on my website/blog/facebook/​printed invitations/fora ...
A good deal both for me and for her, and our relationship standing all right.

I'v also thrown in the suggestion to change jobs, she has been thinking about it but is not willing to take the plunge yet.

thanks for all your idea's and thoughts, it has helped me out 'doing the good thing' but at the same time not giving in too easily.

:love:

I'm glad things worked out so well. I'm sure you are relieved at the outcome.




  
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Sideshot
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Dec 03, 2017 15:27 |  #35

charlemagne wrote in post #18485510 (external link)
I have agreed with the model that I can continue using the pictures for exhibits and book publishing, but that I would refrein from using them on my website/blog/facebook/​printed invitations/fora ...
A good deal both for me and for her, and our relationship standing all right.

It is nice to have an agreement on something like that. Contracts are contracts but agreements can be much more powerful in human interactions.

I have heard of people having nude photos, then the model changes her mind she is out of luck. The boy friend gets mad over it and the photographer ends up in very bad shape with a whole lot of damage. You do not want to be the guy displaying some girls nudes that she doesn't want you to display.




  
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TheNinja117
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Apr 30, 2018 03:03 |  #36

saea501 wrote in post #18475883 (external link)
To me this is quite simple.

If she asked you not to use her images any more, then you do just exactly that. Contract.....no contract....it makes no difference. She doesn't want you to use them, that's all there is to it.


I would second that.
People and their minds and conscious develop over time and how they want to view themselves also does.

It's not always about money, it's about ethics and respecting people for how they want to be treated.




  
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Tigron
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May 04, 2018 12:25 |  #37

I'm with you with the contrat & TFCD and truly understand your frustration ...and know the feeling about that once in a year shoot ...

but using your pictures of her will only give you headaches and stress for quite some time...


why dont you put the pictures away for a while and wait... might take some times, maybe a few yrs but one day..., you will be able to use them back again...
and if...you get an offer for one of the picture for another $1500 or more, check with her, and money can help her tp change her mind again..

In the mean time... ...in exchange for non using the PICTURES.... would it be possible for you to shoot her for other potential commercial stuff ? in a near or not so near future.../ ... from what I understand... its the nude thing the problem...but if she's that good..that gorgeous of a model...if she can provide you some fantastic images in a different photographic category...


p.s Can you show us your work from that shoot ?:love:


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charlemagne
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May 05, 2018 03:39 |  #38

Tigron wrote in post #18619453 (external link)
I'm with you with the contrat & TFCD and truly understand your frustration ...and know the feeling about that once in a year shoot ...

but using your pictures of her will only give you headaches and stress for quite some time...


why dont you put the pictures away for a while and wait... might take some times, maybe a few yrs but one day..., you will be able to use them back again...
and if...you get an offer for one of the picture for another $1500 or more, check with her, and money can help her tp change her mind again..

In the mean time... ...in exchange for non using the PICTURES.... would it be possible for you to shoot her for other potential commercial stuff ? in a near or not so near future.../ ... from what I understand... its the nude thing the problem...but if she's that good..that gorgeous of a model...if she can provide you some fantastic images in a different photographic category...


p.s Can you show us your work from that shoot ?:love:

Hi,
I don't know if she is particularly better than some other models, but we made good things together,
since I agreed not to publish extra images, you'll have to do an effort:
look on my website for: (you can search by opening the + triangle on the bottom of the landing page)
mansion shoot
cirrus
Pauline at SONS
Surfing the clouds

and you'll see her ;)

best
Ludwig


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May 05, 2018 12:38 |  #39

charlemagne wrote in post #18619840 (external link)
Hi,
I don't know if she is particularly better than some other models, but we made good things together,
since I agreed not to publish extra images, you'll have to do an effort:
look on my website for: (you can search by opening the + triangle on the bottom of the landing page)
mansion shoot
cirrus
Pauline at SONS
Surfing the clouds

and you'll see her ;)

best
Ludwig



Thanks !

a wonderful visit on your site..!
the effort was easy to do...
really appreciate my visit..the + triangle is a treasure


Yes I was able to see her... ( btw beautiful lady ) but I would never be able to recognize her....


Photos copyright: Tigron ©1j2m ©jemamo
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Croasdail
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Jun 24, 2018 11:55 |  #40

If you want to have a good reputation, and have your models trust you, since you are dealing with their most personal asset, you have to protect your own reputation more than you would possibly protect your ego. The image I am sure a are fine, but honestly I haven't seen an image of this genre that is so unique that it needs to be preserved for future audiences. You ability to attract talent will be damaged if you don't work with this young lady. It's about trust....and doing what is right to keep that trust.


Mark
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RedHotFoxesPhoto
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Jul 01, 2018 03:36 |  #41

saea501 wrote in post #18475883 (external link)
To me this is quite simple.

If she asked you not to use her images any more, then you do just exactly that. Contract.....no contract....it makes no difference. She doesn't want you to use them, that's all there is to it.

I flat out don't agree.. I mean to me it comes down to this do you the artist have a legal right to display and do with the images as you so wish. Yes yet only if you have a contract / release form that states as much. I mean there really no difference here from her taking a job as a nude art model at some college then years later demanding that the students not use the work created that day as part of their work portfolio. Or better still this would be like an actress demanding all the copies of a film they appeared in five or six years ago be destroyed because they the actor don't like how their character was portrayed in the film. I mean no reasonable person I feel would demand an artist or film maker take such steps if there is in fact documentation out that makes clear the model or actress understood the risk to their careers and still agreed to take part in the project in question.

So I would say feel free to use the ones that you the photographer actually have the legal rights to provided you also have the paperwork that makes it very clear that yeah she has given her consent to be photographed nude by you as part of your artistic endeavors.




  
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RedHotFoxesPhoto
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Jul 01, 2018 03:59 |  #42

Croasdail wrote in post #18650503 (external link)
If you want to have a good reputation, and have your models trust you, since you are dealing with their most personal asset, you have to protect your own reputation more than you would possibly protect your ego. The image I am sure a are fine, but honestly I haven't seen an image of this genre that is so unique that it needs to be preserved for future audiences. You ability to attract talent will be damaged if you don't work with this young lady. It's about trust....and doing what is right to keep that trust.

Trust as they say is a two way street. Yes a model need to trust a photographer wont do anything nefarious with their images. Yet the photographer also needs to trust that they are dealing with someone who is mature enough to get that yeah every choice you make in this industry has a real weight to it. I mean I am all for upholding your reputation. Yet equally so I'm also a fan of upholding your rights as an artist. Which means treating all of this like a business not a charity.

I mean isn't his time wroth something here? So like someone said if she honestly is asking him to take the time to photograph her yet in the end not use the images.. Well then she needs to buy the rights to them at a discounted but still fair rate. For in all honesty what is the point in attracting talent if never have a single image to show for it because you find yourself having to do away with most of your best work because a few years later the model has a change of heart?




  
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Jul 01, 2018 11:51 |  #43

^ Yes!

If she wants to buy out the images I'd be open to taking them down, but you don't have a practical way of keeping her from giving up her recirpocal rights that she derived from a fair agreement you made at the time of the shoot.


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Croasdail
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Jul 02, 2018 14:59 as a reply to  @ RedHotFoxesPhoto's post |  #44

As you say - trust goes both ways. If the gets a reputation for doing stuff like this, not being mature enough to make decisions, that will turn around and burn her two. To the other point, is it art or is it a business, that needs to be decided upfront. If it is art, it is not created specifically with commercial value but an express. If it is business like stock images, images captured due to a commercial contract with a third party, or such, then that is a different issue. If the "artist" has liability for not being able to deliver an end product because of her behavior, the artist is due damages.... or at least compensation.

I wish wasting peoples time was a crime - but it isn't. Any civil actions against the model are both going to hurt the model, and the photographer. They will both come across as prima donnas. And as we know, there is no shortage of pretty women, and there is no shortage of decent photographers.

Trust and reputation is all we really have. Loosing that will cost both more than they ever would have gained by these images. I do know if these images are published it would hurt her reputation far more than would the photographer gain.


Mark
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