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Thread started 12 Nov 2014 (Wednesday) 14:59
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7D Mark II - Focus Discussions

 
gschlact
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May 10, 2017 21:44 |  #7006

Wilt wrote in post #18351032 (external link)
I simply want to be able to try it out, and then decide! Ordinarily I hate the beep, and have it turned off on all my cameras. It was only over this past weekend that I discovered the flaws of in-viewfinder focus confirmation when trying to track moving lacrosse players and rapidly shift from one area of interest to a different area of interest. Getting AF confirmation when you're trying to frame and change focus from one distance to another after reframing (e.g. from passer to receiver) while wanting to keep the ball in view at the same time as seeing if AF is tracking...gets to be a bit much when utilizing vision only. So determining if audible cues help in that situation is the desired observation.

I'll just chime in...., It is ultra rare that focus won't be achieved by the camera under the intended af point in servo mode. Whether or not that focus was locked where you intended is a different question. In other words, in Servo, there will be focus achieved and tracked or reacquired continuously so the beep would be continuous whether it was on your subject or not for 99% of the time. I hope this makes sense. Beeping would not indicate accuracy of focus point focus.




  
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May 10, 2017 22:58 |  #7007

gschlact wrote in post #18351558 (external link)
I'll just chime in...., It is ultra rare that focus won't be achieved by the camera under the intended af point in servo mode....

I wish I could show you the many blurred images I got when shooting a greyhound coursing event on a very cloudy day. But I deleted them all.
AI Servo is not a miracle mode, there are many other elements of successful focusing.


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May 10, 2017 23:37 |  #7008

CyberCat wrote in post #18351613 (external link)
I wish I could show you the many blurred images I got when shooting a greyhound coursing event on a very cloudy day. But I deleted them all.
AI Servo is not a miracle mode, there are many other elements of successful focusing.

Exactly, but it is still a miracle how many keepers one can get in AIServo and Continuous High Speed.


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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
May 11, 2017 09:50 |  #7009

gschlact wrote in post #18351558 (external link)
I'll just chime in...., It is ultra rare that focus won't be achieved by the camera under the intended af point in servo mode. Whether or not that focus was locked where you intended is a different question. In other words, in Servo, there will be focus achieved and tracked or reacquired continuously so the beep would be continuous whether it was on your subject or not for 99% of the time. I hope this makes sense. Beeping would not indicate accuracy of focus point focus.

CyberCat wrote in post #18351613 (external link)
I wish I could show you the many blurred images I got when shooting a greyhound coursing event on a very cloudy day. But I deleted them all.
AI Servo is not a miracle mode, there are many other elements of successful focusing.

mwsilver wrote in post #18351631 (external link)
Exactly, but it is still a miracle how many keepers one can get in AIServo and Continuous High Speed.

Based upon my own experiences with AI Servo this past weekend, to shoot a youth lacrosse game with one grandson on the team, I am in full agreement with the comments made above. As I indicated earlier, out of close to 400 shots there was only ONE shot that was totally out of focus (and I was shooting at 320mm f/5.6, a 70-200 f/4 IS with 1.4x TC). So my own experience is closer to mwsilver's description than it is to CyberCat's. But OTOH, I would lift my finger off the back button, recenter on my new primary player of interest and press the back button to focus on him and hold it down while he ran thru the viewfinder and AI Servo tracked him as I shot....(repeat as necessary)

I can understand how 'focus achieved and tracked or reacquired continuously, so the beep would be continuous whether it was on your subject or not for 99% of the time', as gschlact put it; that could be extremely annoying. But given my description of my use of AI Servo in the previous paragraph, and given my reading past posts from folks complaining (although not necessarily in the context of 7DII, that I can recall), 'I could not release shutter because the camera had not achieved focus', some form of 'AF acquired' would be comforting. The [A]+ description sounds similar enough to what I would like to be able to try out. Admittedly, having a lot of moving lacrosse players is admittedly very different than aiming at a still subject (toddler) who suddenly moves, forcing the need for tracking. Yet even in lacrosse, quite often a player is in place for a moment before they dart off in some particular direction...the [A]+ behavior just might work well enough. I will try it out the next time we go to one of the lacrosse meets.

The analogy would be like a fighter pilot acquiring radar lock on the adversary, getting tone, and then releasing the missle and automatic tracking continues to follow the selected target to guide the missle to that mark (while the pilot acquires a new target). I can hope...after all, after the early frustrations with Auto ISO over a decade ago, eventually Canon did finally get it pretty close to 'well done'.

The disadvantages of [A]+ are numerous, among the most problematic is the lack of much customization such as BBF becomes default shutter button focus.


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May 11, 2017 12:54 |  #7010

Wilt wrote in post #18351866 (external link)
Based upon my own experiences with AI Servo this past weekend, to shoot a youth lacrosse game with one grandson on the team, I am in full agreement with the comments made above. As I indicated earlier, out of close to 400 shots there was only ONE shot that was totally out of focus (and I was shooting at 320mm f/5.6, a 70-200 f/4 IS with 1.4x TC). So my own experience is closer to mwsilver's description than it is to CyberCat's. But OTOH, I would lift my finger off the back button, recenter on my new primary player of interest and press the back button to focus on him and hold it down while he ran thru the viewfinder and AI Servo tracked him as I shot....(repeat as necessary)

I can understand how 'focus achieved and tracked or reacquired continuously, so the beep would be continuous whether it was on your subject or not for 99% of the time', as gschlact put it; that could be extremely annoying. But given my description of my use of AI Servo in the previous paragraph, and given my reading past posts from folks complaining (although not necessarily in the context of 7DII, that I can recall), 'I could not release shutter because the camera had not achieved focus', some form of 'AF acquired' would be comforting. The [A]+ description sounds similar enough to what I would like to be able to try out. Admittedly, having a lot of moving lacrosse players is admittedly very different than aiming at a still subject (toddler) who suddenly moves, forcing the need for tracking. Yet even in lacrosse, quite often a player is in place for a moment before they dart off in some particular direction...the [A]+ behavior just might work well enough. I will try it out the next time we go to one of the lacrosse meets.

The analogy would be like a fighter pilot acquiring radar lock on the adversary, getting tone, and then releasing the missle and automatic tracking continues to follow the selected target to guide the missle to that mark (while the pilot acquires a new target). I can hope...after all, after the early frustrations with Auto ISO over a decade ago, eventually Canon did finally get it pretty close to 'well done'.

The disadvantages of [A]+ are numerous, among the most problematic is the lack of much customization such as BBF becomes default shutter button focus.

With A+ auto mode you cannot select the focus points you want to use, the camera decides what to focus on which may be different than you intended, the camera decides what aperture to use, the camera decides on the shutter speed and ISO setting, and finally it pops up the flash when the camera thinks you need it. That a heck of a price to pay for a focus acquisition beep.


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May 11, 2017 21:40 |  #7011

CyberCat wrote in post #18351613 (external link)
I wish I could show you the many blurred images I got when shooting a greyhound coursing event on a very cloudy day. But I deleted them all.
AI Servo is not a miracle mode, there are many other elements of successful focusing.

Cybercat,
I remember your greyhounds, and believe they could serve as a learning experience for this thread. There was always a sharp plane of focus, just not always on the dog's head. Your issue was one of focal length vs af point area size vs dogs head in the frame vs distance. You didn't have enough reach to accurately control the Af point placement and locking on the head. In other words, Under the area of the af point, there were better choices of contrast than the small area of uni colored head. If you had more FL for those distances, the head would have appears much larger for the af point to reside over. Imho, there always actually always an explanation I. Your shots why the focal plane fell where it did.




  
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (3 edits in all)
     
May 11, 2017 23:35 |  #7012

mwsilver wrote in post #18352037 (external link)
With A+ auto mode you cannot (list).... That a heck of a price to pay for a focus acquisition beep.

I don't disagree, but by experimenting with A+ AF behavior, it is at least possible to assess its utility (or lack thereof) and by collectively indicating to Canon a suggested improvement to AF functionality, perhaps one day Canon might decide to implement the changes...just as it improved Auto ISO over the many years, from useless to useful.

Or maybe it is in the 1Dn as a product differentiator so that we 5Dn and 7Dn owners want to buy up!  :p


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May 12, 2017 04:57 |  #7013

the most interesting thing about A+ mode is that it won't peg ISO at 400 when using flash - I think this shows that there is the ability for Canon to improve Auto ISO and flash use


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May 12, 2017 11:06 |  #7014

Wilt wrote in post #18352479 (external link)
I don't disagree, but by experimenting with A+ AF behavior, it is at least possible to assess its utility (or lack thereof) and by collectively indicating to Canon a suggested improvement to AF functionality, perhaps one day Canon might decide to implement the changes...just as it improved Auto ISO over the many years, from useless to useful.

Or maybe it is in the 1Dn as a product differentiator so that we 5Dn and 7Dn owners want to buy up!  :p

Other than the beep thing, what other improvements are you referring to? It seems that most of us have no issue with the existing implementation of the beep and confirmation light.


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May 12, 2017 11:14 as a reply to  @ mwsilver's post |  #7015

I have nothing in particular in mind...the 7DII and its AF are still very new to me (only 60 days) and I am still discovering. All of the menu options and the behavior changes associated with each, and the implications and pros and cons of each choice, are staggering! So the [A}+ AF capability for beep sounds as if it might be something useful, but until I try it out I won't have any idea of current weaknesses of that behavior as currently implemented. So I am just talking generalities about how experimentation and complaints or discussions about ways to make something better might get integrated into the future...as a general concept of product evolution.


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Jul 09, 2017 19:20 |  #7016

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17827508 (external link)
All CFLs and LEDs flicker, due to the AC cycling, correct? Also, I am not sure that it is the flicker necessarily that causes focus shifts? I am pretty sure it is the color temperatures can cause issues with the different wavelengths.

True but studio and modern CFL's flicker so fast that the eye or camera can't detect it.

https://www.scientific​american.com …llacy-cfl-bulb-headaches/ (external link)


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Nov 06, 2017 07:05 |  #7017

CyberCat wrote in post #18118884 (external link)
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by CyberCat in
./showthread.php?p=181​18884&i=i268399637
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by CyberCat in
./showthread.php?p=181​18884&i=i98249963
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras


CyberCat wrote in post #18118883 (external link)
Based on the discussions of recent days I am still unsure how to achieve better results with the running dogs.
I brought a series of pics to show how the first pic was in focus and how the focus was lost during tracking and how it got worse and worse.
Case 2, Tracking sensitivity -1, Acel/decel tracking 2, AF point auto switching 2, Zone AF.

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by CyberCat in
./showthread.php?p=181​18883&i=i33233810
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras


thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by CyberCat in
./showthread.php?p=181​18883&i=i118048452
forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras

I am not sure if you resolved your problem or not. I frequently shoot very fast moving dogs. I use a 1DX II in case 4 most of the time. I use 4 point expanded not zone. Zone will focus on the closest subject and will easily pick the ground plane as your focus points come to close to the ground. You can see lots of my dog photos in my gallery here or on my Flickr page. I occasional use case 3 with 4 point expanded for dogs coming directly at me with a focal length long enough for me to keep the focus point on the face.


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Nov 06, 2017 11:25 |  #7018

butterfly2937 wrote in post #18489768 (external link)
I am not sure if you resolved your problem or not. I frequently shoot very fast moving dogs. I use a 1DX II in case 4 most of the time. I use 4 point expanded not zone. Zone will focus on the closest subject and will easily pick the ground plane as your focus points come to close to the ground. You can see lots of my dog photos in my gallery here or on my Flickr page. I occasional use case 3 with 4 point expanded for dogs coming directly at me with a focal length long enough for me to keep the focus point on the face.

Can you list out the exact settings for Case 3 and Case 4 on a 1DX II? That is, a) tracking sensitivity, b) accel/decel tracking and c) AF point auto-switching?

Thanks!


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Nov 06, 2017 12:14 |  #7019

Scrumhalf wrote in post #18489960 (external link)
Can you list out the exact settings for Case 3 and Case 4 on a 1DX II? That is, a) tracking sensitivity, b) accel/decel tracking and c) AF point auto-switching?

Thanks!

Just a heads up about Case 3. It does not focus faster for you. Case 3 is the opposite of Case 2. Factory Case 2 Tracking sensitivity is set to -1. Case 3 is +1

With a negative TS setting the camera AF is more stubborn. If the AF points go off you main subject, or something gets in front of it or your subject goes behind something else it will give you some time to re-aquire it. At -2 you get about 1 second which may not seem like much at shooting at 10 to16 FPS it can make a world of difference.

Case 3 assumes you are focused in something already. If another target enters the AF point/ it immediately focuses on it. If you are shooting two dogs running and you want to go back and forth between them Case 3 is the one.

When I got my 7D in 2009 there were no case numbers. I set Tracking Sensitivity to -2 and shot like that for 5 years. I always have it set to -2 no matter what case I use unless I want to switch back and forth quickly between 2 targets.

I'm usually on Case 2 with TS set to -2 and I think it is the most important parameter.I find the accel/decel and AF switching pretty good at the factory settings. Accel/decel is increased in Case 4 and makes it more sensitive to movement towards and away from you.

Personally I have not found a mass difference increasing you set AF switching if you are in expansion AF modes. With TS set tp -2 all the points can go completely off my subject and it still holds focus. That is why I use full zone in cases 5 and 6 to take more advantage of the AF points switching using more points.

Not sure if I posted this here but here is a breakdown of the case numbers that helped me. I still think appropriate shutter speeds and technique get you further than mucking with case numbers. They just fine tune a bit.

Case 1. Base setting that will cover most shooting situations.

Case 2. If AF point/s go off your subject AF will hang on and not refocus instantly on something else to give you time to reacquire your original subject. This includes your subject being obstructed by something else.

Case 3. The opposite of Case 2. System will immediately refocus on another subject when AF point/s fall on it. The intent is that you are already focused on something else first.

Case 4. System is more sensitive to objects moving to towards and away which includes abrupt stops/starts and increase/decrease in speed from a start point to a finish point. This would include objects moving in a 45 degree angle.

Case 5. System is more sensitive to left, right, up and down movement. In single point or expansion you still have to be just as diligent tracking your subject in those directions as you would in cases 1 to 4.

Case 6. Combines cases 4 and 5.

Here is a good video. Listen to what the presenter says in the first minute about Case 1 and I tested it. I base everything that and use the others to tweak.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=7sgRZBo-WKI (external link)


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Nov 06, 2017 12:43 |  #7020

Oh yes. I was watching an Art Morris video about birding and he said he can do better than Canon :-) Since he does use not Case 3 he sets it up to

TS -2

Accel/decel +2

AF switching +2


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