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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 04 Jan 2018 (Thursday) 00:00
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New Godox AD600Pro

 
jlafferty
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Jan 14, 2018 23:08 |  #91

Your claims don't line up with my tests :/ Maybe you need to rerun things under more controlled circumstances, or check to make sure you've got your meter properly calibrated.

+/- 200 means a potential spread of 400K from a fixed point - depending on where I pulled white balance, at most I could get around a 450K split, but usually closer to 350-400K

I couldn't go to 1:64th or below for my tests, but I found the 600 performs much better than you claim, and within the published specs at least 1:1 on down to 1:32 power.

Rock solid color and output stability within a fixed power setting across each setting.

This is a comparison of 1:1 vs 1:32 power. Just sequential frames, bare bulb, from 10ft away; adjusting only aperture, keeping ISO and shutter speed constant.

If the 600Pro is an improvement on this, that's fantastic, but it's already really, really good.



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fotopaul wrote in post #18536330 (external link)
One thing to keep in mind is that the spec's on paper, does not always reflect the real world performance.

Considering the AD600E states a tolerance within +/-200K which is not true at all.

It's rather 800-1000k from low to high. The tolerance from pop to pop is however acceptable within 100k.

Now it's quite possible the color stability is improved, however, if their previous specs. is any indication i would take that with a grain of salt.


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jlafferty
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Jan 14, 2018 23:21 |  #92

For a real laugh, this is an overlay animation of 6 sequential frames from the same test, using an Evolv, but given the numbers I'm seeing from the Xplor, the performance would be similar:

https://i.imgur.com/vG​hNsHe.gif (external link)


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fotopaul
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Post edited over 2 years ago by fotopaul. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 14, 2018 23:27 |  #93

I tested from 1/1 to 1/256 with a calibrated color meter, so nope, I don't have to redo anything. Seems you had trouble even testing it since you didn't test less than 1/64.

Questions are rather why you didn't go below? I tested highest and lowest and the difference metered was between 800-1000k.

In the end, if you happy with your results that's fine. That will however not make any difference as to my findings with a Sekonic C-700.

I didn't test the AD200 so your gif is irrelevant.


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 2 years ago by MayaTlab.
     
Jan 15, 2018 02:33 |  #94

jlafferty wrote in post #18541079 (external link)
This is a comparison of 1:1 vs 1:32 power. Just sequential frames, bare bulb, from 10ft away; adjusting only aperture, keeping ISO and shutter speed constant.

If the 600Pro is an improvement on this, that's fantastic, but it's already really, really good.

400k or so across a 5 stop range isn't really, really good. That's around 80K per stop, which is basically in line with what typical voltage controlled strobes have provided for decades, only in reverse (warmer as you lower the power output). It can be good enough for some people (for me colour stability across the power range isn't an absolute necessity, just a comfort), but it isn't really good. To put things in perspective a Profoto B1/B2/D2 can have a 50-100k delta across 8 stops.

Shot to shot consistency at the 1:32 setting though, looks excellent. One of my B2 heads, for example, is much wonkier than that in terms of power output (the others are excellent, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Profoto's manufacturing tolerances aren't quite as excellent as they should be in some regards).




  
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jlafferty
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Post edited over 2 years ago by jlafferty.
     
Jan 15, 2018 07:14 |  #95

fotopaul wrote in post #18541098 (external link)
I tested from 1/1 to 1/256 with a calibrated color meter, so nope, I don't have to redo anything. Seems you had trouble even testing it since you didn't test less than 1/64

Just ran out of time and going below 1:32 without risk of color contamination would mean resetting & rerunning the test differently.

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541171 (external link)
400k or so across a 5 stop range isn't really, really good. That's around 80K per stop, which is basically in line with what typical voltage controlled strobes have provided for decades, only in reverse (warmer as you lower the power output). It can be good enough for some people (for me colour stability across the power range isn't an absolute necessity, just a comfort), but it isn't really good. To put things in perspective a Profoto B1/B2/D2 can have a 50-100k delta across 8 stops.

Shot to shot consistency at the 1:32 setting though, looks excellent. One of my B2 heads, for example, is much wonkier than that in terms of power output (the others are excellent, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Profoto's manufacturing tolerances aren't quite as excellent as they should be in some regards).

For my purposes the fact that it's completely stable at a fixed power setting is really, really good. The fact that it drifts ~80k per stop isn't ideal but it's: not really a factor in my work that would be noticed by anyone other than on a discussion forum, i.e. clients; and so easy to fix - what is that, 1/8th CTB or even less? Or adding 30 seconds in post warming the shadows using a luminosity mask? At the end of the day I'm not turning in histograms or color charts to people ;)


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 2 years ago by MayaTlab.
     
Jan 15, 2018 07:21 |  #96

jlafferty wrote in post #18541235 (external link)
For my purposes the fact that it's completely stable at a fixed power setting is really, really good. The fact that it drifts ~80k per stop isn't ideal but it's: not really a factor in my work that would be noticed by anyone other than on a discussion forum, i.e. clients; and so easy to fix - what is that, 1/8th CTB or even less? Or adding 30 seconds in post warming the shadows using a luminosity mask? At the end of the day I'm not turning in histograms or color charts to people ;)

I don't necessarily disagree. But in 2018 the AD600's results you provided are at best average in terms of colour temperature across the power range. The AD600 pro shouldn't have a hard time doing better :D.

Were you able to test sample variation between strobes / flash tubes ? i.e., at the same power, with the same setup, between two AD200 or AD600 ?




  
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jlafferty
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Post edited over 2 years ago by jlafferty. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 15, 2018 08:08 |  #97

I tested a single Evolv, the twin bracket with one and two bulbs, the 600, and an SB-800 as a baseline.

The Evolv/AD200 performed very similarly to the 600 - warming as power went down, but rock solid within a given power setting. If anything it showed a slightly smaller drift, 260-350K across 5 stops.

For my purposes, it will be anecdotally interesting to see what the addition of a 1/8 CTB would do for a fill light that's 2 or 3 stops under the key, on a face, in a real environment; and if the ~300K difference is even noticeable in real world practice.

Edit: looks like it's 1/4 CTB to close a 300K gap.

Edit, again: thinking on it further, my fill light is usually running within a stop, but usually a third of a stop of the power setting of my key, and it's distance that accounts for their difference in exposure. So the color consistency I've been seeing in my work running at odds with what people are claiming isn't surprising.

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541239 (external link)
I don't necessarily disagree. But in 2018 the AD600's results you provided are at best average in terms of colour temperature across the power range. The AD600 pro shouldn't have a hard time doing better :D.

Were you able to test sample variation between strobes / flash tubes ? i.e., at the same power, with the same setup, between two AD200 or AD600 ?


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fotopaul
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Post edited over 2 years ago by fotopaul.
     
Jan 15, 2018 10:00 |  #98

jlafferty wrote in post #18541235 (external link)
Just ran out of time and going below 1:32 without risk of color contamination would mean resetting & rerunning the test differently.

So you haven't really tested it @ 1/256 and compared it to the 1/1 ? The color shift over the power range is rarely constant, so why do you come to the conclusion that the C-700 would measure it incorrectly?


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jlafferty
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Post edited over 2 years ago by jlafferty. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 15, 2018 10:09 |  #99

You've made claims that are well outside the stated tolerances. I've observed a trend that seems consistent with the stated tolerances, and shown proof. You haven't shown anything.

FWIW yep, I've also seen that the overall trend is for the strobe to warm as power dips, but it then returns closer to the 1:1 color temp after 1:16th ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't doubt the C-7000 is a good tool but I have reasons to believe the operator's claims are dubious or an anomaly. Feel free to prove me mistaken. Show us your setup and explain your process.

And then once you do that, we'll move on to other questions such as: is it your one head that behaves this way? In what circumstances would it really matter in practice?

I find your claims of a 1000K drift to be inconsistent with what I've observed; and *especially* your claims of "within 100K frame to frame" to be inaccurate, or... the other possibility is that if the C-7000 has such exacting, tight tolerances and is objectively true... and yet observing a shift of at most 2 points per channel acros consecutive frames in Capture One... maybe your claims are completely accurate, but have little bearing on real world use. Is it possible that your "within 100K, which is acceptable" is simply 1-2 points of drift in the channels?

fotopaul wrote in post #18541314 (external link)
So you haven't really tested it @ 1/256 and compared it to the 1/1 ? The color shift over the power range is rarely constant, so why do you come to the conclusion that the C-7000 would measure it incorrectly?


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jlafferty
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Post edited over 2 years ago by jlafferty. (3 edits in all)
     
Jan 15, 2018 10:24 as a reply to  @ jlafferty's post |  #100

Here's a follow up question that I think is the way to approach the "problem" of color drift: at what proportion of the total exposure does a color temp drift become perceptible? In other words, in a typical scenario, where my fill light is 1-3 stops under my key, and thus represents somewhere between, what, 50% to 17% of the light exposing my subject... within *that* proportion, how noticeable is a drift of 100, 300, even 1000K? In what real world, practical scenarios - not academic conceptual scenarios - would this be problematic?

I'll put my cards on the table and say in my personal experience it doesn't matter much, and I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where it would. I've worked with photographers who mix sources, who shine lights through mixed color temp surfaces and, within reason, it doesn't seem to matter... even to upper tier clients. Especially given that, in the case that is always offered for why color stable strobes are so crucial - "my work must meet the strictest standards for the most demanding clients" - those scenarios always come with a post production pipeline that includes bringing a series of images within spec for layout, and thus (again, within reason) the point is rendered moot.


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fotopaul
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Post edited over 2 years ago by fotopaul.
     
Jan 15, 2018 11:39 |  #101

jlafferty wrote in post #18541323 (external link)
You've made claims that are well outside the stated tolerances. I've observed a trend that seems consistent with the stated tolerances, and show proof. You haven't shown anything.

Shown proof of you not bothering testing it properly and not with a color meter.

It should be easy enough for you to measure your self with a C-700, this time make sure you test the whole range.

I've tested it and found it to be between 800-1000k with the C-700 yes. You can call it whatever you like, that is irrelevant to me.

I tested one AD600E, I don't have any intention in testing more than one or use it (now returned to the dealer)) it was for my own curiosity and some clueless remarks made online about HSS not eating power that it got it in the first place.


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MayaTlab
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Jan 15, 2018 11:48 |  #102

jlafferty wrote in post #18541270 (external link)
If anything it showed a slightly smaller drift, 260-350K across 5 stops.

Was that with the fresnel head or the bare bulb, or maybe even the twin head bracket ?

I've only been able to make a quick colour temperature shift run with the fresnel head (it was a friend's) and found it to perform roughly in that ballpark, but I wasn't able to repeat the test and do it with much care.

jlafferty wrote in post #18541270 (external link)
at what proportion of the total exposure does a color temp drift become perceptible?

Good question but I don't think that I'm the best placed to offer a good answer to that. For me colour consistency is a convenience, not a need.

Visually I can by eye when comparing light sources notice a 150k shift rather easily, on a grey wall. But once actually in the real world there are so many other factors at play that it becomes just one factor among a sea of others.

A very typical use case where I quite enjoy the B2's consistency : changing aperture mid-shoot and changing the strobes' power output as a result. No need for another grey card test. I can just copy and paste WB settings as long as nothing else changes.

I also find it liberating to know that if I encounter a colour temperature issue, I can already discard thinking about the flash itself when going through the list of potential causes. I don't think that I have enough experience to instantly find the cause of this or that WB issue, so it frees up brain power for other potential causes. Honestly I've had way more issues with optical brighteners anyway.

jlafferty wrote in post #18541270 (external link)
Is it possible that your "within 100K, which is acceptable" is simply 1-2 points of drift in the channels?

I think that it's entirely possible. Here's the exact same photo, duplicated, but with 100k added to the WB settings in the second version :


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jlafferty
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Jan 15, 2018 12:20 |  #103

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541421 (external link)
Was that with the fresnel head or the bare bulb, or maybe even the twin head bracket ?

Just the bare bulb, single (in the twin bracket and solo) and double. Not the fresnel. I have no use for the fresnel head, and TBH I've heard that the fresnel is even "better" where color stability is concerned and I'd rather look at worse case scenarios, and build my workflow and expectations around that.

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541421 (external link)
For me colour consistency is a convenience, not a need.

Visually I can by eye when comparing light sources notice a 150k shift rather easily, on a grey wall. But once actually in the real world there are so many other factors at play that it becomes just one factor among a sea of others.

Agreed, within reason. If I was seeing a 1000K shift, and it mattered in final output, I'd care more.

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541421 (external link)
A very typical use case where I quite enjoy the B2's consistency : changing aperture mid-shoot and changing the strobes' power output as a result. No need for another grey card test. I can just copy and paste WB settings as long as nothing else changes.

I also find it liberating to know that if I encounter a colour temperature issue, I can already discard thinking about the flash itself when going through the list of potential causes. I don't think that I have enough experience to instantly find the cause of this or that WB issue, so it frees up brain power for other potential causes. Honestly I've had way more issues with optical brighteners anyway.

All fair points. I work the same way with a mix of the Xplor and the Evolv Twin head, playing the two off eachother as key and fill, and haven't seen any perceptible shift that matters.

MayaTlab wrote in post #18541421 (external link)
I think that it's entirely possible. Here's the exact same photo, duplicated, but with 100k added to the WB settings in the second version :

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by MayaTlab in
./showthread.php?p=185​41421&i=i167400777
forum: Flash and Studio Lighting

Interesting to note, thanks!


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jlafferty
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Jan 15, 2018 12:27 |  #104

fotopaul wrote in post #18541412 (external link)
Shown proof of you not bothering testing it properly

No.

fotopaul wrote in post #18541412 (external link)
and not with a color meter.

True, for now. They're hard to come by unless you want to spend $1800+. I'm not in the market for tools that satisfy some arbitrary academic proof, while having nothing to do with my real work.

fotopaul wrote in post #18541412 (external link)
You can call it whatever you like, that is irrelevant to me.

Your hearsay claims from one test you won't show are the same to me: irrelevant. Take care ;)


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MayaTlab
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Post edited over 2 years ago by MayaTlab.
     
Jan 17, 2018 03:48 as a reply to  @ jlafferty's post |  #105

Things looking good so far for the AD600 pro in the following comparison :

https://www.youtube.co​m …ahHW9HA0&featur​e=youtu.be (external link)


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Now if only they could carry that sort of performance down the line...



  
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